PERUN accelerates payment transactions on Blockchains with private channels


Public blockchains, like Ethereum and Bitcoin, can only do ten transactions per second. If you only want to put one percent of global financial markets on the blockchain, you would have to do hundreds of thousands more. That is where Perun comes in. They are a B2B startup and work with other companies who are interested in blockchain or already working with it. Perun generates an additional layer on the original blockchain, their protocol (2nd layer off-blockchain) is more secure and much faster by enabling transactions to be sent peer to peer in separate channels without confirmation of thousands of blockchain miners. In each channel, thousands of transactions per second are possible with current technology.

Perun’s channel technology could also be used by centralized financial networks like credit card companies or other payment providers (think PayPal). Their channel technology also allows machine-to-machine-payments on blockchains.

During the interview, we also talk about their technology’s theoretical limit.

They will soon release their protocol as an open-source developer kit. Find more information on that on their website.

Interview Partner

In this interview, Joe is talking to Sebastian Stammler – Implementation Lead ( and Hendrik Amler Scrum Master ( at Darmstadt based Blockchain startup PERUN ( At the time of the interview (October 2019), the company was not yet incorporated.

Perun is part of a research group jointly of TU Darmstadt ( and University of Warsaw ( TU Darmstadt is one of the great starting points for many deep tech startups ( here in Germany. You might also want to pay a visit to HIGHEST, the startup and innovation center of the university:

Tune in to learn more.

Podcast Blockchain Germany by

If you are interested in German Blockchain startups, you can find our audio-only podcast “Blockchain Germany by” here:


As opposed to the usual Youtuber or Podcaster in the Blockchain space my guests don’t pay thousands of Euros to be here. AND neither am I invested in you guys. I am also getting NO kickback.

For everyone who is surprised about that, many channels work like this. Just pay attention to the people in Telegram Chats who ask for admin emails and “business proposals” they usually sent an offer with a price tag of several thousands of Euros, sometimes upwards of 50.000 Euros, just to be on their channel. Oh, and before I forget: They usually only want cash, they don’t take crypto.

Make sure you vet your main blockchain information source before you fall in those traps.

Further reading:

We are talking during the interview:

Vobis was a – now-defunct – computer hardware retailer in Germany, in the late 1990s. Some years they were showing the largest revenue for computer hardware in Germany. Learn more here in Wikipedia (article only in German):

Diploma degree:

Prof. Dr. Sebastian Faust of TU Darmstadt:

Prof. Stefan Dziembowski, PhD of University of Warsaw

Technical Papers for further reading:

– General State Channel Networks

– Virtual Payment Channel Hubs

– Multi-Party Virtual State Channels


Recommended Holiday Readings (Affiliated Links)

The Fire Starter Sessions by Danielle LaPorte
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

by Stephen R. Covey


The 8th Habit: From Effectiveness to Greatness

by Stephen R. Covey
The $100 Startup by Chris Guillebeau
Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell
Grit – The Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela Duckworth




Intro: Welcome to Startuprad.IO, your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German startup scene with news, interviews, and live events.

Joe:  Hello and welcome everybody, this is Joe from Startuprad.IO your startup podcast and YouTube blog from Germany. If you’re listening to this at Startuprad.IO or blocked in Germany by Startuprad.IO, make sure you also pay a visit to our YouTube blog, to see the YouTube interview.

This time I am talking to two people, co-founder of Blockchain start-up. As I was researching, I bumped again into the let’s say unsavory business behavior of some other people, that’s why I just added this disclaimer.

As opposed to the usual YouTube or podcast in the Blockchain space, you don’t pay thousands of euros to be here, meaning my two guests, and neither am I invested in you or do I get any feedback. For everyone who’s surprised about that, many channels work like this, just pay attention to the people in telegram chats who ask admins for emails and business proposals.

They usually send it off offer with the price tag of several thousand euros sometimes, upwards of fifty thousand euros just to be on the channel. And before I forget, they usually only want cash, they don’t take crypto. Make sure you vet your Blockchain information sources before you fall in those traps.

That said, today, I do have two co-founders of a Blockchain startup from lovely Darmstadt here with us. And we may add that at the point we are recording this, you guys have not actually legally founded your startup, right guys?

Sebastian S.:  Yes, that’s correct. We are still a university a research project at the moment.

Joe: Okay, I see. Can you guys introduce yourself a little bit?

Sebastian S.:      Yes, sure. So welcome everybody, my name is Sebastian Stammler. I’m one of the cofounders of Perun. Actually, I started studying mathematics Darmstadt about ten years ago, even more than ten years ago. I was one of the last to do the diplom. While I was studying mathematics, I was rather doing number theory and more theoretical stuff, but I always loved to also work with computers.

So from an early age of 11, I started programming, and I bought my first SUSE Linux distribution in the focus computer store and was annoying the telephone hotline of SUSE Linux for installation instructions because an 11-year-old Sebastian didn’t know what partitions are. And then, after I studied mathematics, I actually went into the industry, worked as a financial quant, so as a quantitative finance analyst at Ernst & Young. And then I actually missed working in smaller teams, so I wanted to have more of a start-up spirit, and I also wanted to work even closer with computer science.

So I joined a rather medium-sized start-up in Darmstadt working with integration software. And then, after a year, I decided that I actually missed research, so I joined to Hampstead again to do a Ph.D. in computer science. So since four years, I’m doing a Ph.D. in applied cryptography, especially in a minimization techniques and secure multi-party computation.

And then about a year ago, I met a Sebastian Faust. He’s a professor at you, Darmstadt, together with a few of his colleagues, for example, Lisa Achhi. And they work on Blockchain protocols, especially scaling solutions like payment channels and state channels, and when I met them, I was very excited to hear that we actually have a research group doing Blockchain Darmstadt.

So we quickly came together, and I joined the team, and yes we will later explain to you exactly what the team is exactly, what is the relationship to the University and how the project functions. And oh yes, and one last thing I forgot to mention is that about two years ago, I already founded a Blockchain star up, with which I went to Tel Aviv to join a startup accelerator for three months. And this didn’t work out fully, but it was a great, I had a great time, I learned a lot, it was a great experience, and now I’m even more excited to do startups, and this is why I’m with Perun again. And yes, now I’m going to go to Hendrik.

Hendrik A.:         Yes. Hi, my name is Hendrik Amler. I’m also one of the co-founders of Perun. And yes, I’ve joined Perun about six months ago and it’s kind of a funny story. Because I have a background and master’s in IT security, I did a master’s in IT security. And at the time, I was working at a start-up doing KYC, also founded here in Darmstadt.

And while I was doing my master thesis also at the research group of professor Sebastian Faust, so I learned that he moved from the [Inaudible 00:05:25.05] and visited of Bochum to Darmstadt and I was like oh cool, like one Blockchain researcher, I have to write my thesis with this professor. So I went to his first lecture, showed him my proposal, and he was like yes sure, let’s do this.

So I did my master’s thesis here in the University, and he coincidentally put me in the office with Sebastian Stammler, and Mario’s also one of the co-founders, and then they kind of like sucked me into the Perun world of [Inaudible 00:05:56.11], and yes I thought it was really exciting. I mean, this was my first interaction with Blockchain because I’ve been into this space since 2013.

So I started mining and started like writing some small programs, and trading like the whole thing I think everyone in the Blockchain space does, and yes, this is kind of my story. I have a background in infrastructure, so I’ve been working in data centers, and we happen to also have like our own little cluster that’s blinking and stuff. So we actually moved there in this summer because it was so hot and there’s no air conditioning, so we moved to the server room. So we enjoyed some cool temperatures when it was like 40 degrees in Germany.

Joe:                        Yes. I may add a little bit background to what you guys are saying, just for the simple reason that more than 75% of our listeners are actually listening to this podcast outside of Germany. At first, we want to tell Fobus used to be a retail store chain here in Germany. That was actually blockbuster; it was also the place where I got my first personal computer. I would add number two; diplom is a degree that used to be awarded here in Germany; it’s between a masters and a bachelors.

But usually, in the level of difficulty, it usually is a master’s. And then finally buildings in Germany usually don’t have Ac’s, but apparently, we’re now getting summers that actually do need it. I could see the guy’s on the other channel are already smiling. So can you tell us a little bit about how your idea developed, and what market are you actually working on with your future startup?

Joe:                        Yes. So what we’re building is infrastructure software. So our products are scalability solutions, so very general concept scalability solutions to Blockchain. So our market really is focused on anyone applying Blockchain technology.

So at the moment, we see many companies, many consortiums doing proof of concepts with Blockchain. But as soon as they hit production, they like most applications actually will see scalability problems, and this is where our product will come in.

Hendrik A.:         Yes. So maybe some more background on this, so the scalability issue means that public Blockchains such as etheorem and Bitcoin right now can only do ten transactions per second. And if you wanted to put one person of the global financial market on the Blockchain, you would have to do more than like tens of thousands of transactions, and this is where we come in.

So we’re targeting right now larger company’s more than five hundred employees that are already working with Blockchain or thinking about it. But most recent reports show that they fear security, and the second thing they fear is the scalability issue that I just talked about.

So we hit both of these targets because our protocols that we developed here at Darmstadt are actually approvable secure. So that means that on a protocol level, there can be no more security issues. And this is one major USP of us that we can fulfill, so yes.

Joe:                        We always try to make these podcasts so everybody can understand it without any background. From my understanding, basically, Blockchain is a decentralized database that actually gets bigger, so to say longer with every transaction, and that’s where the scalability issues come from, right?

Joe:                        Yes, exactly. Sorry, we didn’t give any background on Blockchain yet, yes we’re sorry for that. And so Blockchain to sound less sexy it’s just an append-only decentralized database. So the database is modified by transactions, so every time you want to modify, for example, the balance of people in the Blockchain network, you send a transaction, and this transaction gets appended, and several transactions are grouped into blocks and then blocks form the Blockchain.

So basically, what’s happening is that that entity is called miners aggregating transactions into blocks, and then they try to solve a mathematical puzzle in the case of proof-of-work Blockchains. And then, they also have a pointer back to the prior block, and then when the mining process is successful, this block gets introduced into the Blockchain network and is broadcast.

So at the core, Blockchain is really just a solution to how do you decentralize a database, and have a common view like a world view on the state of the database. And you have several algorithms to find consensus; those are consensus algorithms or consensus mechanisms like proof of work, this is the famous proof of work that Satoshi Nakamoto introduced Bitcoin.

How do you actually find a common ground, a common view of the database? And this is what Blockchain really is. But because you have to distribute those transactions and the state of the network through the whole network, you very quickly hit a scalability problems, scalability boundaries, and this is where our technology comes in.

Joe:                        Okay. Let’s try to relate it a little bit to things everybody can understand. So what is usually the security concerns? Because at the beginning, there have been many exchanges, Bitcoin exchanges, especially that got hacked and completely robbed. So I do believe that’s where one of the security issues is actually coming from. Are you actually helping with this?

Hendrik A.:         No. Actually, we kind of depend on the security of the underlying Blockchain. So what we’re doing is basically usually when you send a transaction in the Blockchain, it has to be confirmed by thousands of parties and then this decentralized network. And this takes some time, and bitcoin it takes like 60 minutes until one of those transactions is confirmed.

And this is the reason why there is this limit of ten transactions per second because everything has to be distributed, and it takes a while and confirmed. And so what we’re doing is improving this by creating sort of a second layer above this basic Blockchain layer, so we kind of depend on the security of the Blockchain layer.

Sebastian S.:      I might add to that, that for example, in the case of hacked exchanges, usually, you don’t have a security flaw and the Blockchain itself. So it’s not a problem with the consensus protocol or with the Blockchain, for example, in the case of Mount Cox, right? I mean, I think this was probably the most famous case of an exchange being hacked. At no point like the Bitcoin Blockchain wasn’t really hacked, but it was actually the [Inaudible 00:13:30.12] that were faulty.

I mean, they actually claim that there was a problem called malleability, so transaction malleability is just like a technical term. But it also isn’t really like a security hole in the Bitcoin model, but it was really a hole in the operational security of Mount GOx.

So we are not providing security for Blockchain like let’s say an extra layer of security or something for companies like exchanges, but rather we are building something new on top of Blockchain. So we do rely on the security of the underlying Blockchain that is being used.

Joe:                        Okay. And can you explain like for people like me without a computer science background? Can you explain what you’re building on top of this Blockchain?

Hendrik A.:         So basically like I said, you don’t send transactions within the first layer of the Blockchain. So not thousands of people are confirming this, but the idea is that we can send transactions peer-to-peer. So, for example, Sebastian and I want to do a transaction, a transaction I don’t send it directly to the Blockchain, whether it’s confirmed by thousands of people, but I send it to him directly. And most people then say well how is this secure, because you kind of bypassing the whole Blockchain.

And the idea is that we do both one transaction on the Blockchain, this is the first transaction, and then we open a direct channel between the two of us. And once this channel is established, we can send mediate transactions like thousands of mediate transactions, doesn’t matter how many. And once we decide that we are finalized, we can close this channel, which is also on the Blockchain.

And when we kind of disagree on something, so I say well I sent you something, and Sebastian say no you didn’t, at any point in time we both can put this channel that we opened on the Blockchain.

So we both get our fair share, and on the Blockchain, there’s something called the adjudicator, who kind of decides based on a predefined set of rules who actually gets what amount of money. And we have proofs that we sent between each other, so I send him like a signature and then it’s kind of finalized. So he can be sure that he will get the money once I sent him like a confirmation that I sent one coin.

Sebastian S.:      Yes. So just to add to that, so the whole idea of going off-chain, of doing a second layer on the Blockchain, is that instead of having every single transaction confirmed by the whole network, you block a certain amount. So this is like we both enter a contract, and within this contract so I’m really thinking in terms of legal contracts. We might lock up some money, and the contract says okay, we deposit say 10000 euros in a bank account, and the contract says this is now locked and we can between each other with cryptographic means, can work with those 10000 euros.

And then, we can send each other cryptographically signed transactions that modify how those money is distributed between each other. And then only in the dispute case do we go to like a judge to a court, and this is where the Blockchain will only act as a judge. So the whole idea of second layer is really that instead of having every single transaction, every modification so to speak of the Blockchain database.

Having completely being confirmed and checked by the whole network, you lock up some assets like ether or like Bitcoin, and then you can work with those locked assets in the two-party channel. Because the two parties or end parties can agree how this is distributed. So this is like it works in the real world, right? So if we both enter a legal contract, not every time we do some kind of company into action, do we go to a judge.

So the only time when we go to a judge so to a court is when we have a dispute because then we will get to our lawyers and we will read the contracts, and then we both discuss with a court, and then the court decides what was right or wrong, and who actually won the dispute.

And this is exactly how the Blockchain is used in our case, so instead of having every single transaction being confirmed, this would be like every time you do a transaction or some interaction with a company in the real world, every time you go to a judge, but you don’t really need to do that, right? You only really need to go to a judge if there’s a dispute, and this is exactly what second layer technologies do.

Joe:                        I see. I now understand like opening a separate channel between you guys, and we are more of a b2b channel, so a lot of our audience are entrepreneurs, are founders, are people on a sea level. So can you give them some ideas on how they could actually work with such a concept, how you could integrate it into software, into processes stuff like that?

Hendrik A.:         Yes, sure. So the first thing we’re building right now is an SDK, so a software development kit that we want to release open source by the end of December, that can be used to integrate our technology that we just described a second layer of chain technology into existing Blockchain systems.

So these developers can use our technology kind of as a library that you can add to a soft brand, and they can utilize our functionality if that’s easy enough to understand.

Sebastian S.:      So yes, like we said before, our main targets are really people who are already using Blockchain. And so if you have like a consortium like your company has a group of other companies and you have a hyper ledger fabric instance, for example running.

So hyper ledger is one of those proof of authority Blockchains that is being used for consortium Blockchains right now, and then people could you use those channels to drastically increase the scalability and also the finality requirements on transactions. So yes, like in the business-to-business context, this is actually perfectly usable software to increase scalability and also the finality of a transaction.

Hendrik A.:         And we’re currently working with Bosch and telecom here in Germany to develop proof of concepts. So this is right now mainly IOT, so kind of machine to machine communication. So we’re working on this use case where we have a factory, where not only Bosch is involved but other parties within that building. So the idea here is that they don’t really trust each other, and they kind of want or you have a decentralized marketplace where you can kind of order specific things.

So one guy offers to cut metal, another guy offers the robot who can move things from A to B, and you have kind of this marketplace, and then I can say okay I want the Bosch robot to move something from A to B, and kind of have an assembly line between different parties within the building. So it’s all machine to machine communication IOT, so this is what I can talk about. So we’re doing some more stuff, but this is a project we’re doing right now with Bosch, it’s really exciting, I think.

Sebastian S.:      And Bosch actually one and a half years ago already started cooperating with a research group of Sebastian Faust. And they also have their team internally implementing our protocols. So they have a payment channel and proof of concept already running. And I think also one of the first examples that they have is like a drill that you can pay with. So they are currently building; they already have it like a smart drill, so to speak.

And you can then pay the drill with tokens, and then it just spins like the amount of tokens that you pay it. And this is just to highlight on what such a granular level you can now do the transfer of like payment transfers, and this is one of the great things about channels that you can really do micro transactions on a sky scale that is not imaginable before. So, in theory, you could actually also use this channel technology for centralized financial networks.

So, for example, the visa network or even the PayPal payment network could also introduce our channel technology to have direct peer-to-peer or even machine-to-machine payments without going over the server. So also, like in the visa case, it would look like this, both parties agree to lock up some funds, and this would then be locked up with a central visa server.

And then, after the visa server has recorded these funds being locked on their server, then two devices could directly exchange cryptographic signatures to send micro transactions. And we’re really talking about could be thousand of a cent that is being sent every second to pay for some service, yes.

And this is also possible with channel technology, so in an abstract sense, channel technology doesn’t even depend on a Blockchain network as the transaction network, but it could also be a centralized network like Visa or PayPal.

But currently, we are of course working with etherium as the first back-end, because this is also where the whole research and theory comes from. But just to make sure that the technology could even be used in centralized transaction networks.

Hendrik A.:         Yes. So, for example, we also have use cases such as streaming video, so if you stream a video, you don’t have to pay for the whole movie. So if you’re twenty minutes into the movie, you realize oh it’s so boring I don’t want to really watch it anymore.

Then you only have to pay for those twenty minutes. And yes we can do this like on a granular level, you can pay for each five seconds so even every second it’s always in the realm of possibility.

Joe:                        I was wondering when I’ve been listening to you guys, just personally I do have a FinTech background or finance background working lots with technology. You’ve been talking like ten transactions per second if I do remember correctly on Bitcoin? How big could you scale with your payment channel technology in terms of transaction per second?

Sebastian S.:      So the theoretical limit really is thousands of transactions per second because, in a channel, the only two parties that are involved in those transactions are actually the two parties on the channel. And the only thing like on a technical level, a transaction is nothing else but a cryptographic signature on some chunk of data. So really, the throughput is really just hindered by let’s say the network latency, the network throughput, and the speed by which your CPU can produce cryptographic signatures.

And I mean right now you can easily generate I think ten thousand cryptographic, like elliptic curve cryptography signatures this is what’s being used in etherium. You could easily create 10,000 of those signatures in a second on a modern hardware, and then probably your bottleneck is actually going to be the network latency, network throughput. So this is really what limits the technology, like the very bare network throughput and CPU throughput.

Joe:                        I see. And with the right hardware, you can even get faster than 10000 times?

Sebastian S.:      I guess if you have like a very strong network connection, like a 100 gigabits per second network connection, yes I guess you could even do that. But then the question comes up, where you need so many in a single channel because this is very important to note, we’re not talking about transaction throughput of the whole network, but between only two people right.

Because in our channels, basically, you have a fixed amount of people, I mean usually in a payment channel two people. And then, within that channel, you can transact as many transactions as possible. So if you think about the whole network, it caves even way higher, right? Because it’s really only between two people where you can reach say 10000 transactions per second, but in the whole network, it can be even like more, like you can multiply it by the number of channels.

Joe:                        I see. And the next question is, of course, is there a theoretical or practical limit on the number of channels you can have?

Sebastian S.:      So the thing is channels itself become impractical. So when we’re talking about ledger channels, ledger channels is what we call what is directly being funded by the Blockchain or by the network. And then I mean it really is just, so there are no theoretical limits really. I mean basically, everyone could open a channel with everyone else, but then you have a practical like let’s say you have a usability limit because you have to lock up funds.

And imagine you have like a thousand customers, and you have to lock up funds with each customer, then you actually have a liquidity problem because you don’t have enough funds to lock up. So I think there’re not really theoretical limits on the let’s say theory of it on the technology, but it’s rather a liquidity problem which you run when you work with channels.

Joe:                        I see. And are you also working with some models like trustees? Or something that actually does can a little bit work with the money so that you don’t have to commit like 100% but only like margins like you do in terms of Euros transactions derivatives?

Sebastian S.:      Yes, a very good question because we’re actually having active research right now. So maybe this is a good point to give a bit of background on the whole project because, as we said before, right now, the company is not founded yet. But it is still a research project within the Technical University Darmstadt also in cooperation with the University of Warsaw. And the two professors Sebastian Faust and Stefan Janoski, those are like the co-inventors of the whole Perun protocols.

And they have several PhDs working on all kinds of new technology and protocols that concern off-chain solutions for Blockchains like payment channel, state channels. And also something completely else like plasma chains, which are called commit chains, but I’m not going to go into details here. So I’m just giving this background to say that right now, Perun is a huge group of researchers, doing active research in many fields.

And one of the fields we are doing research in right now is really having only partially collateralize channels to have to build channel networks because this is when it gets really interesting our technology. Because you can have two people having a channel funded by the Blockchain, and then you can build complete networks with those channels. This is also what lightning on Bitcoin is doing, so maybe one of the listeners are familiar with a Bitcoin lightning Network.

And the Bitcoin lightning Network is the most prominent and biggest payment channel network. So our technology is exactly doing this, but what we are doing is on a more general level, because we not only can run payments in those channels but actually completely [Inaudible 00:29:37.04] smart contracts in those channels.

So this is why it is a strict generalization of Bitcoin-style of payment channels, but for other Blockchain like etherium, hyper ledger and so yes we are currently researching and thinking about how we could build complete channel networks, where you could think about hubs in the middle like partially trusted unknown hubs that don’t have to have full collateral, but only partial collateral.

Joe:                        I see. That’s usually what you do in derivatives clearing facilities in the financial markets. Sorry, I interrupted you?

Hendrik A.:         No, I was going to say this is kind of how the banking system works right now as well. So you have like huge hubs. Those are the banks, and they have like a more or less trusted network between them. So they say I owe you some money, you owe me some money, and then they balance this somehow.

Sebastian S.:      And exactly this kind of topology and situation is what we are currently researching to also reflect that in channel networks, because right now if you look at the Lightning Network if you also look at the current state of payment and state channels in etherium you will only see fully collateralized channels, which is fine if you have two parties that are completely not trusting each other, right?

Then it just makes sense to have it fully collateralized because there’s nothing to be loosed. But if you really think about a big hub networks, then it really makes sense to work with trust here to have some element of trust between the hubs.

Hendrik A.:         So the initial thinking behind the Lightning Network was we are going to have this huge decentralized payment on a network, and everyone can transact freely with one another. We don’t need any hubs or trusted parties. But then a while later, they figured out well this doesn’t really work because the routing is an issue, so if I want to route something to a different person, so a transaction does take some time to compute actually.

Right now, the network has 10,000 nodes, I think, and sometimes you run into issues where actually finding a path to the recipient of the money takes like 10 minutes or something like this. So then now they’re going back to this hub topology, where you kind of like in the internet your router connects to a provider, and then this provider connects you to all the others. Because it would be infeasible for the Internet to be fully decentralized, because there wouldn’t be much performance, you would have to wait like a few minutes to open a web page probably.

Joe:                        I see. And everybody can tell we are catching on very cutting edge technology and forward-looking stuff here. Everybody that would like to learn more go down here in the show notes, there is a link to the LinkedIn profiles of the two guys I’ve just been talking with, as well as to the website of Perun networks.

And I hope you guys also give me the link to all the research you’ve just quoted, and I’ll also put it in the show notes. Wherever you’re watching this video or listening to the audio track, go down here in the show notes. There’s a link to our website,, and then a little bit text that’s our blog, and the specific blog where you can find all the show note links. Hendrik, Sebastian it was a pleasure having you here, thank you very much.

Sebastian S.:      Yes, thanks a lot. It was really a great pleasure talking to you, and I hope we could really give you an insight about the current state of off-chain network, State channel networks. And if you build a Blockchain network and you hit scalability problems, call us.

Hendrik A.:         Yes. Thank you so much for the interview, if you’re interested in our technology, you can just reach out to us, and we’re looking forward to your feedback.

Joe:                        Thank you very much; it was my pleasure. Bye guys.

Sebastian S.:      Bye.

Outro:                   That’s all, folks. Find more news, streams, events, and interviews at www.Startuprad.IO; remember sharing is caring.