Camel Startups in DACH: The STS Ventures Playbook with Stephan Schubert
- Jörn Menninger
- 9 hours ago
- 21 min read
Management Summary
There’s a quiet revolution happening in the German startup ecosystem — and it’s not unicorn-shaped. It’s a movement defined by capital efficiency, early profitability, niche dominance, and founders who grow because they choose to, not because they must. In this long-form guide, we unpack the camel startup model with Stephan Schubert, serial founder (OnVista, Ligatus) and Investor & Managing Director at STS Ventures. His playbook blends Mittelstand pragmatism, strong unit economics, and KPI discipline with a contrarian stance toward hype-driven investing.
This isn’t just another interview recap. It’s a pillar blueprint for founders and investors in the DACH region who prioritize control, resilience, and profitable exits. You’ll learn:
Why niche, high-margin markets are the hidden engine of scalable, cashflow-funded growth
How camel founders raise funding on their terms — not out of emergency
The KPI frameworks STS Ventures uses with every founder
Why avoiding hype cycles (NFTs, quick commerce, LLM infrastructure) can outperform in the long run
Why non-unicorn exits often create far richer founders than billion-dollar ones
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Table of Contents
What Is a Camel Startup?
The STS Ventures Origin Story
Why Capital Efficiency Beats Hype in DACH
High-Margin Niches: The Camel Growth Engine
KPI Discipline: How STS Ventures Works with Founders
Fundraising on Your Terms (Not Because You Must)
The Mathematics of Non-Unicorn Wealth
AI Without the Bubble: Tool, Not Religion
Real Founder Patterns from Audibene, Emma, JustWatch
The Camel Mindset: Are You This Type of Founder?
FAQ (12–15 questions)
What Is a Camel Startup?
Stephan Schubert didn’t invent the camel metaphor, but he perfected it.
In his words, a camel is a startup that:
Doesn’t require constant watering (capital)
Carries reserves (cash discipline)
Survives hard conditions (market downturns, funding winters)
Still runs fast when needed (scalability once the engine is found)
This is not about being slow. Camel startups can grow very quickly — once their economics justify it. What they don’t do is scale prematurely, burn money to chase vanity metrics, or rely on pitch-deck storytelling to compensate for unit economics that don’t work.
Unlike unicorns, camels don’t win because of speculative future value.They win because they become profitable businesses in realistic timeframes.
The STS Ventures Origin Story
Stephan’s entry into investing wasn’t planned. After selling OnVista in 2007 — an online trading platform he co-founded in the early internet era — founders began calling him for advice and capital.
For ten years, he invested only his own money. Then he noticed a pattern:
There was a gap in the German ecosystem: capital-efficient founders with a Mittelstand mindset — people who wanted to build profitable companies fast.— paraphrased from interview
This is how STS Ventures was born — not as a hype-driven venture firm, but as a private equity mindset at the earliest stage. They invest €200k–€1M early, then double down up to €5M once the camel traits show up.
Why Capital Efficiency Beats Hype in the DACH Region
The camel model is particularly well-suited to Germany, Austria, and Switzerland.
Reason 1: The Mittelstand DNA
Founders here are comfortable with long-term thinking, cost discipline, and product-centered businesses.
Reason 2: Smaller Funding Markets
Unlike Silicon Valley, DACH founders don’t have endless capital to burn. Nor do they want to.
Reason 3: Rich Exits Without Unicorn Valuations
When a founder sells 50–60% of a €200M company, they can walk away wealthier than a unicorn founder with 1% — and far less exhausted.
Reason 4: More Exit Options
Profitable companies can be bought by:
Mittelstand corporates
Private equity
Strategic buyers
You don't need IPO windows that are rarely open in Europe.
High-Margin Niches: The Camel Growth Engine
Camel startups almost always play in niche markets.
Why?
Because niches give you pricing power — which creates high margins — which fund sales, marketing, and product expansion without external capital.
Why Niche Markets Matter
Fewer competitors
Faster customer feedback
Lower CAC
More defensible positioning
Potential to dominate before anyone notices
If the whole market is charging 8%, charge 20%. If everyone else is slow, be fast. If others are manual, automate.
Camel founders treat niche markets like stepping stones: dominate one, expand to the next.
KPI Discipline: How STS Ventures Works with Founders
This is one of STS’s biggest differentiators.
Immediately after investing, Stephan sits down with founders and co-defines the KPIs that will drive growth for the next 12–24 months.
Then they build a simple Looker Studio dashboard and check:
Contribution margin per unit
Payback periods
CAC vs LTV
Sales pipeline health
Fixed vs variable cost behavior
Profitability timing
Camel is not a type of company. Camel is a mindset.— Stephan Schubert
Honesty is non-negotiable. Founders who “creatively” define KPIs are politely shown the exit door.
Fundraising on Your Terms (Not Because You Must)
One of the most powerful insights from the interview:
There’s a huge difference between raising because you can and raising because you must.— paraphrased
Most founders live in permanent fundraising mode. They enter every round with:
Low runway
High stress
Weak negotiation power
Camel founders flip this script.
They raise when:
They don’t urgently need the money
They already have growth engines working
They want to accelerate, not survive
This is how they achieve:
Better terms
Less dilution
Bigger ownership at exit
More leverage when choosing investors
The Mathematics of Non-Unicorn Wealth
Let’s compare:
Unicorn founder scenario
€1B exit valuation
You own 1%
Outcome = €10,000,000
Camel founder scenario
€200M exit valuation
You own 55%
Outcome = €110,000,000
This is what Stephan means when he says:
You can get very rich without ever building a unicorn.— paraphrased
Camel startups focus on value creation, not valuation creation.
AI Without the Bubble: Tool, Not Religion
A highlight from the interview:
Stephan openly dismisses LLM infrastructure startups. Why?
Because OpenAI and Meta are spending $40–60 billion per year on the space.
A seed-stage European founder cannot compete with that.
Instead, STS Ventures invests in companies applying AI as an enabler — not a core technology. Example:
AI used for waste-processing improvements.
Camel founders ask:
“Where does AI make this niche 10x better?”
“How can we use LLMs without building them?”
This is how you build moat — not burn rate.
Real Founder Patterns from Audibene, Emma, JustWatch
Across his hits, Stephan noticed consistent traits:
1. Early revenue with high unit margins
Audibene, Emma, KAUFTA — all sold products with solid contribution margin.
2. Extremely efficient marketing engines
Not “spray and pray”, but measurable, repeatable, predictable growth.
3. Founders who seek profitability
Not as an afterthought, but as part of the founding philosophy.
4. Relentless KPI tracking
Daily dashboards. Bi-weekly reviews. No vanity metrics.
5. Clear exit options
Corporate, PE, and strategic buyers — not IPO-only dreams.
The Camel Mindset: Are You This Type of Founder?
A camel founder:
hates waste
respects every euro
loves dashboards
prefers control over hype
picks markets they can realistically dominate
raises smart money, not desperation money
plays the long game with strategic clarity
If this sounds like you, you’re already one of Stephan’s people.
FAQ
1. What is a camel startup?
A capital-efficient, early-profitable company designed to survive funding winters and scale sustainably.
2. Why does STS Ventures prefer camel startups?
Because they create real value quickly, reduce risk, and produce richer founders.
3. Are camel startups slower than unicorns?
No. They scale fast — but only once metrics validate the opportunity.
4. What markets are best for camel startups?
High-margin niches with low competition and strong pricing power.
5. Does STS Ventures invest in AI startups?
Yes — but applied AI, not LLM infrastructure.
6. How important is profitability early on?
Critical. Camel startups aim for profitability within 3–4 years.
7. What KPIs matter?
Contribution margin, CAC payback, LTV, cash efficiency, and revenue quality.
8. Why avoid hype cycles?
Because they create unsustainable expectations and poor risk-adjusted returns.
9. What type of founder fits this model?
Pragmatic, numbers-driven, long-term thinkers.
10. Can camel startups raise VC?
Yes — usually from investors aligned with efficient scaling.
11. What are typical exit options?
Mittelstand corporates, PE, strategics, occasionally IPO.
12. Do camel founders become rich?
Often richer than unicorn founders, due to higher ownership retention.
13. Are camel startups anti-growth?
No — they just scale responsibly.
14. Is Germany better suited for camels than unicorns?
In many cases, yes — due to funding dynamics and cultural alignment.
15. What is the biggest camel founder mistake?
Confusing frugality with under-investment; efficiency ≠ starvation.
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The Host & Guest
The host in this interview is Jörn “Joe” Menninger, startup scout, founder, and host of Startuprad.io. And guest is Stephan Schubert, Investor & Managing Director at STS Ventures.
📝 About the Author
Jörn “Joe” Menninger is the founder and host of Startuprad.io — one of Europe’s top startup podcasts. Joe's work is featured in Forbes, Tech.eu, and more. He brings 15+ years of expertise in consulting, strategy, and startup scouting.
Automated Transcript
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:00:00]:
Foreign. Your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German startup scene with news, interviews and live events. If you're a founder chasing your first round or early stage looking to scale, resilience and traction, this conversation is for you. Meet Stephan Schubert, serial entrepreneur turned super angel whose fund STS Ventures backs hidden champion tech startups in the dark region. From Building On Vista, that's an online trading website. I also do have an account and Ligatos to investing in Emma we interviewed in the past Audio Bine and just watch. He brings real operator DNA to early stage capital. Stay tuned.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:00:55]:
Right after this break, we'll jump into the decision that turned a founder into into one of Germany's most connected seed investors. Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe coming to you straight from startup land in Cologne together with Deutsche Startups on today's startup land from Cologne we welcome Stephan Schubert. As the founder of leading Internet companies like On Vista and Ligatos, Stephan has more than 15 years of hands on experience in founding, scaling and existing tech firms. Today he leads STS Ventures, a colonial early stage fund known for investing 200,000 to 1 million in resilient camel startups. In the pre seed and seed phase, he's backed some of the strongest names in German startup history. Audiobene. Just watch.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:01:44]:
And he's here to unpack the metrics, mindset and matchmaking behind the investments that really matter. Let's welcome him.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:01:52]:
Welcome. Thanks. Thanks for having me here.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:01:55]:
Stephan, you've been both founder and investor. What's your once upon a time moment that made you leave building companies and focus on investing?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:02:09]:
Yeah, the answer might be disappointing. It wasn't a real strategic decision. We sold our company after building it for 10 years. And then a lot of people called and said, you know, you have experience and you want to look at my company, invest in my company. And the reason is we founded on Vista in 1998, so the very early stages of the Internet era. So at that time we sold it in 2007. A lot of people just valued the experience we had. And so I step by step came into investing in startups.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:02:42]:
What was the thing you've seen the ecosystem and what were you going to disrupt there?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:02:49]:
Yeah, I think for almost 10 years I invested only with my own money and did that more occasionally whenever, as I said, deals came. And then after a while I started realizing that there is a gap in the German ecosystem which we think is what we call camels and I think we will talk about that later. So startups that are more have a Mittelstand, nice German word, a Mittelstand mindset and try to build companies that are capital efficient and that try to reach profitability after a couple of years and then grow out of their cash flow. And that's something that is pretty unique in the, I would say the European ecosystem. So what we our mission was to bring private equity mindset into the early stage startup world in the DAF region.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:03:45]:
You've invested in well known companies like our guest Emma. We'll link it somewhere here. Just watch an audiobena what was the aha moment that confirmed your investment thesis there?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:03:58]:
Well, with Emma and Audibene and some of the others in Kafta, I found founders who from the beginning on tried to generate cash. And with generating cash, I mean they had a product which they sold at a price that they had a nice margin. So every additional revenue meant additional margin. And they did that with a very efficient marketing and sales process. And you could see that the company, when it grew, would sooner or later become profitable because it scaled. And having founders that had this mindset trying to become profitable within the next three, four years really taught me that this is possible because that's what we did with On Vista without thinking, thinking about it at the time, 1998, we didn't have VCs in the German ecosystem that much. The German VC ecosystem just started at that time and we simply didn't have VC funding and we didn't have other cash sources than our revenue. And I found later on that there's other people out there who have the same mindset and who actually managed to do that and still grow very impressively.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:05:05]:
So that was the moment when we said, okay, this might be something we can, we can grow and we can start to scale in a larger system where we don't do just one or two investments per year, but maybe five to 10.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:05:20]:
You are investing in very, very early stage pre seed seed. How do you deal with this uncertainty, evaluating the growth potential and so on and so forth. Like the camel you've been talking about. And wasn't there a better name than Camel for this concept?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:05:39]:
Well, yeah, it's always hard if you have a strategy, it's always hard describing it. And we found that the camel actually is something people understand very well. Let's define what's a camel. Camels don't eat a lot of water. Camels always have reserve on their back. Camels are very resistant and can survive in a dangerous environment for a long time and they can still run very fast if you look at camel races. So transforming or translating that into the startup world, we found that people understand very quickly what we're looking for. Capital, efficiency, cost control, so that you can survive harder times.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:06:19]:
And once you have found the metrics of growing and the scalability formula, they can still grow very fast. So actually, I think the camel might be a funny picture, but it works very well. People understand it very well. And coming back to your question, this means we look at business models typically that are in a niche market. So we don't try to disrupt the auto market or the food market because these markets are really large, but they need a lot of capital to win in there. We like companies that operate in niche market, bring a new idea to the niche market where there's not a lot of competition. Therefore you have high margins. High margins mean you can afford marketing, you can afford sales processes, and with each sales, you generate a contribution margin that actually helps covering your costs.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:07:09]:
And what we look at in the first place is business models where we think that eventually, with a total investment of something between 1 and 10 million euro, they can become profitable and grow out of their operating cash flow. And of course, we look for founders who share this vision and who are willing to build a company like this.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:07:29]:
You typically, before we head into that, I do understand the founder who founds the next big LLM model and wants to compete with ChatGPT. They're not the right person you would talk to?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:07:44]:
Yes, I think that's something you could say. And the reason is very simple if you look at just taking that example, and this has been true for over 25 years now. But if we look at the current AI world, I mean, companies like Meta and OpenAI, they invest 40, 60 billion dollars per year into building LLMs. And I just don't think that is something we as STS Ventures and probably the entire European VC ecosystem can do. So we have to find smarter ways to build companies and make money. And yes, that's true. We wouldn't be able to look at these kind of companies. Doesn't work for us.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:08:32]:
Just to tease you a little bit.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:08:33]:
Because there was a lot of talk around town and in the blogosphere recently. How high do you think is the probability that the current AI market is a bubble?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:08:45]:
You know, I've been in this market for 25 years now and we could actually draw a chart and show you the topic of the year for the last 25 years. Now it's AI LLMs. Two years ago it was NFT, before it was blockchain, before that it was E commerce, before that it was circularity. And then, oh, don't forget quick delivery. Quick delivery, yeah, you know, so there's a new story in town every year and that's okay. That's momentum investment. And some of these companies really grow very, very fast and become very big. But at the end, it's a very small percentage to succeed in these markets.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:09:25]:
And therefore, whenever one of these trends comes up, we tend to specifically not look at that, but look at the value that is creating behind these trends. So LLM and all these new tools we see in AI are big change in the entire tech ecosystem, but it's just a tool. 25 years ago it was the Internet, TCP, IP and CGI bin and nobody knew how to use it. And then we invented all kinds of languages and I don't want to downgrade that. But at the end, it's a tool that we can use in different environments and that's what we look at. How can we use AI and LLMs in new environments? Like, for example, we invested in one company that uses AI technology for the waste processing industry. And that's a very nice case where we think AI has a lot of value, but I don't have to create the base technology underneath, which is very, very competitive and needs a lot of cash to be successful.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:10:27]:
Talking about being successful, you invest with STS around 200,000 to 1 million and then follow up up to 5 million. What is your decision framework to decide, double down or exit a startup?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:10:42]:
Yeah, I think it's finding out the metrics that drive growth and finding out if a company or a team is able to generate growth with positive contribution margin cash flow. Once we have understood and once the team has found a way to scale, so build the engine and then scale from there with positive contribution margins, meaning, you know, you subtract your costs of goods sold, the marketing costs, the sales costs and everything. Once you find out that you have a scaling way of growing and still have a positive contribution margin, I think that's when we become exciting, become excited, and what you say, double down and talk to the team if there's a way to invest more money and scale growth.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:11:36]:
Right after the break, we'll talk about how you manage founders, investors relations and red flags you're watching out for. How do you view the ideal relationship between founders and investors, especially in the very early seed phase? What behavior from founders excites you and what behavior actually consists, let's say red or an orange flag.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:12:06]:
So immediately after investing, what we like to do is sit down with the founders and define the KPIs that we think lead to growth. And we means the founders in us. So we sit together and we discuss what will be the drivers for the next one or two years that might lead growth. And we build up a KPI system, typically a very easy bi tool looker studio or something where the team tracks these KPIs typically on a real time or daily basis. And every other week we just look at these KPIs together and say, is it developing in the right direction? Every once in a while we find out also the wrong KPIs. We have to find a different way to do sales and stuff. So people that build a number driven company is one thing that excites us and the other thing is, and we are often misunderstood, Camel is not a type of company. Building a Camel is a mindset.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:13:00]:
So founders that have the mindset of using these KPIs and looking at the same time at their cost structure, you know, not growth at any price, but growth at a, at a decent cost structure. And having the mindset of fundraising is not a KPI that exciting. That's exciting for them, but profitable growth is in the KPI that's exciting for them. Those are two parameters that we really like and what we typically when we work with founders together, found very quickly, both the founders and us, that it works very well together. Yeah. And if these things are not there, everyone's wild. Find founders who are not really honest to us, who try to create KPIs that are very creative. So look at your company in a very honest way.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:13:51]:
Talk about the things that don't work. Look at the right KPIs drive these KPIs and be capital efficient. That excites us and the opposite does not really excite us. I wouldn't say it's a red flag, but we would definitely have a conversation then.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:14:05]:
Looking at exits like audiobene, Kaufta, what patterns do you observe in scaling from seat to exit? What lessons should founders absorb early?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:14:23]:
Yeah, you know, there's one interesting thing. It's a huge difference if you raise money when you can raise money versus if you raise money because you have to raise money. So we see a lot of startups that are constantly in fundraising mode and are constantly close to running out of cash. And that generates a lot of stress for the entire company and all investors. And there's a lot of time invested in finding the next round, finding the next investors. The examples you just said is most of these companies did not run into that situation. They were able to grow, they were able to run their business. And then if someone came around and said, you know, I would like to invest 2 or 5 or 10 million in your company, then we could talk about the terms.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:15:14]:
And that's a total different situation. Because you take money because you have ideas how you can grow faster, you have ideas how you can go in another country. And you take the money because you have found the right investor in the right situation, but you don't urgently need the money to pay the next payroll. And that has brought these founders into situations where they could invest a lot more time in building their company and outperform a lot of their competitors. I think that's something we really appreciated in these cases. And at the end, these exits were not unicorn exits. But the interesting thing is the founders had much more shares in their own companies because they didn't have that much dilution. And some of these guys became really rich without having a unicorn exit, but Simply still had 50, 60% of their company.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:16:04]:
And if you sell a company at 100, 200, 300 billion euro and you own 50, 60%, that's still a lot of money. And it's more money than if you own 1% at a unicorn exit.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:16:15]:
And that's a lot of money even in Germany, after taxes. I see. Plus you don't, you don't have been in the spotlight all over because if you want to do unicorn exit, I'm sure for the rest of your life, you get calls, you get emails, you get all this stuff.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:16:28]:
Do you have money?
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:16:29]:
Do you want to invest?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:16:30]:
Yeah. Ultimate advantage. And that's one other thing. If you build a profitable company, you have many, many more exit options. You know, some of these huge unicorns, there's only a few companies in the world who can buy them. Or you have to do an ipo. And the IPO window is not open very often in Europe. Actually for the last 25 years we've seen it maybe twice that it was possible to exit fast growing non profitable companies with an ipo.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:16:59]:
But if you have the other model of a company generating cash, generating ebit, all of a sudden you have the typical strategic company, corporate mittelstands, buyers, PEs who are interested in these kind of business models. And that opens a whole new door of exits. You can proceed there.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:17:21]:
Let's look a little bit into the future. There's some macroeconomic headwinds in there. How do you adjust your thesis and what contrarian view do you have about the next big tech investment in the German and the Dach market.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:17:37]:
Yeah. I think the funny thing is we don't think we have to adjust anything because we think this is exactly the time we were prepared for. We had a lot of questions from our investors in 2020 and 21 why they had other VCs that have three unicorn investments and we don't have any unicorn valuations in our portfolio. And we had to explain that why this was the case because some of our larger companies didn't even raise money during that time. Now I think it's the right time for our strategy. And with our portfolio, we have a lot of companies that simply don't need cash. And that's a very good situation we're in right now. And also the founders are in a very good situation to be in.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:18:20]:
So we don't adjust anything right now and we're very happy with our positioning in the current market.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:18:26]:
Usually we close our interviews with two questions. Are you open to talk to new investors? In your case, potentially LPs?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:18:35]:
I mean, yeah. If someone likes this idea of looking at tech startups and investing and building companies. We're always interested in people who support this ecosystem and like our approach. Absolutely.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:18:50]:
And also usually we ask, are you open to talk to new talented employees?
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:18:55]:
Yes, yes, of course.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:18:57]:
We link down here in the show notes, your career website.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:19:01]:
Wonderful. Thank you.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:19:02]:
Thank you. It was a pleasure talking to you.
Stephan Schubert | Investor & Managing Director | STS Ventures [00:19:04]:
Thanks, Jiren. It was a pleasure talking to you too.
Jörn "Joe" Menninnger | Founder, Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:19:11]:
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