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“To accelerate our growth, we need to buy companies”Pascal Lauria, founder and CEO Cogia
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“My goal is 10 mn Euros revenue. To reach this we need to keep buying [companies]”Pascal Lauria, founder and CEO Cogia
The Founder
Pascal Lauria (https://www.linkedin.com/in/pascallauria/) has a very diverse background, raised in the Rhine-Main-Area his studies took him to Canada. He later worked in Taiwan, Silicon Alley (New York’s startup hub), and in Silicon Valley. He took his experience to go back to Frankfurt and set up Cogia there (https://www.cogia.de/?locale=en_us).
“Acquisitions are not always successful. We are very aware of that. We are working on it. For example in our last acquisitions we did not lose even one employee.”Pascal Lauria, founder and CEO Cogia
The Startup
Cogia Intelligence (https://www.cogia.de/?locale=en_us) is a big data, ai startup. It provides in its current setup innovative products and solutions in the areas of web and social media monitoring, market research, and open-source intelligence. The company Cogia GmbH is the startup, the company Cogia AG is the listed entity. Pascal started Cogia in 2010 but listed Cogia AG only in 2021 in Düsseldorf. Then the two entities merged and so Cogia GmbH got listed. You can learn more about the listed entity here: https://cogia.ag/de/investor-relations/
“With the access to capital markets I want to do one to two acquisitions per year.”Pascal Lauria, founder and CEO Cogia
The Video Interview is set to go live on Tuesday, December 14th, 2021 at 16.00 CET
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The Interviewer
This interview was conducted by Jörn “Joe” Menninger, startup scout, founder, and host of Startuprad.io. Reach out to him:LinkedInTwitterEmail
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WEBVTT
00:00:00.017 → 00:00:08.819Startuprad.io
00:00:09.239 → 00:00:13.320Your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German speaking startup scene.
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00:00:20.051 → 00:00:33.296Hello and welcome everybody this is Joe from startuprad.io your startup podcast and you to block from Germany today I bring you another interview in our cooperation with hasn’t read in a vest under the brand00:
00:33.185 → 00:00:37.860invest in hessen make sure to check out their website invest
00:00:37.758 → 00:00:49.140in hessen.com talking about Hess and the largest city not to Capital but largest city in hessen is Frankfurt and in Frankfort I do have a guest today
00:00:49.065 → 00:00:55.378Pascal hey by Scott how you doing hi people
00:00:55.366 → 00:01:08.666who are longtime listeners to celebrate that IO May recognize you from coin analyst but today we are here due to your ventricle
00:01:08.627 → 00:01:09.494cogia,
00:01:09.536 → 00:01:20.072cogia we’ll talk about pretty soon but the thing is you got listed mostly unnoticed from anybody else so
00:01:19.988 → 00:01:26.355we will talk about your story and how you got listed in Dusseldorf.
00:01:26.892 → 00:01:37.230But first an upfront tell us a little bit about you and what did you and what brought you actually to go be hard to be an entrepreneur.
00:01:37.398 → 00:01:49.104Whoo that’s a number one name was born and raised in darmstadt another city in hessen and I’m a real hessen boy and it Italo has an boy.
00:01:49.308 → 00:01:56.981And now we created a new category that it’ll osm boy yeah Italo has some boy and.
00:01:57.194 → 00:02:05.542Yeah it’s now I’m happy to live in Frankfort my wife is also from Frankfurt so that’s a real big local play.
00:02:06.169 → 00:02:13.230I did my high school you know it’s kind of grammar school and after then I went to Canada.
00:02:13.407 → 00:02:23.105Did my degree in economics major macroeconomics and I had a minor in computer in computer science.
00:02:23.337 → 00:02:29.371And my first actually computer language was Pascal Norman S omen.
00:02:29.782 → 00:02:37.473And after my Canadian experience I went to Taiwan had a chance there to work
00:02:37.461 → 00:02:49.077for software company two years learned picked up some Chinese while I was there and their company I work for was actually then acquired by Coral Raw,
00:02:49.200 → 00:02:56.216by Corral sorry which is another Canadian company so kind of was kind of cool getting back to the Canadians,
00:02:56.321 → 00:03:10.196in Taiwan and after two years of that I went to I went back to my home country and back to Heston in a small town called Chevelle box and I work for some song European it headquarter there.
00:03:10.545 → 00:03:15.580I was I joined the SDS Aqua Data Systems of Samsung,
00:03:15.649 → 00:03:25.671they made over 1.2 billion in revenues for the time and I was responsible to sell their software which they’re not so famous for but we did from 0 to 10 million.
00:03:25.839 → 00:03:35.286A build up that unit and so I was what actually one of the youngest Amia managers at the time with long hair was pretty revolutionary for,
00:03:35.301 → 00:03:36.717quite conservative,
00:03:36.768 → 00:03:47.385company when you lived as quite conservative work that and then after that I had a chance to work for Silicon Valley company.
00:03:47.931 → 00:03:56.540And it’s spin-off or like continuation of HP open mail so it’s called scalex,
00:03:56.636 → 00:04:10.313after after scaling and introducing it for a successfully into Europe I had another opportunity to introduce and bring to Market company out of New York silicon alley,
00:04:10.437 → 00:04:14.572not so famous but actually New York is going for third in Delhi.
00:04:14.776 → 00:04:26.383Since Eric Schmidt is now a living in New York to keep the new ally in that company I Grew From 40 people to 200.
00:04:26.704 → 00:04:35.385I was with you know we I did 90 percent of the revenues with roughly third 50 million in three years.
00:04:35.607 → 00:04:42.281And out of that 90% is my was was my Revenue so the company’s Revenue was 90% coming coming from me.
00:04:42.467 → 00:04:52.012So that was my trigger where I said well shouldn’t I do this for myself wouldn’t it make sense so I know that’s that was the trigger and that’s how I started cogia.
00:04:52.441 → 00:04:59.583And Co here is a big data aai company and it’s basically my passion United its macro.
00:05:00.066 → 00:05:05.452Catching all the data in understanding market trends in near real time it’s very exciting.
00:05:06.197 → 00:05:13.978And then AI text mining is just a natural process just to be you know maximized,
00:05:14.047 → 00:05:24.960on your results and trying to get more out of your results it was a natural thing that we had to you know get in look at machine learning to improve our results right did you get more out of the data.
00:05:25.317 → 00:05:31.766So that’s the reason why I actually we happen to have now over 10 years of Big Data array I know how.
00:05:32.024 → 00:05:42.533In in a space that at that time wasn’t that hot but now now we one of the lucky ones that that has over 10 years experience in a very important space.
00:05:42.917 → 00:05:45.954And that’s big data API and then,00:05:46.059 → 00:05:59.097you know I came up by hearing my friends suffering with crypto and research and you know having fear of scam that’s how it started then coin analyst.
00:05:59.274 → 00:06:04.120Just because it’s a spin-off other cogia because I wanted to help my friends.
00:06:04.765 → 00:06:13.789And one of my one of those is a co-founder of that kind of this which is the other companythank imperiously the mothership that’s how it started.
00:06:14.794 → 00:06:23.439We are doing you know how our staff customer satisfaction monitoring for like Fortune 500 companies but they are sorry go ahead.
00:06:23.652 → 00:06:32.927That was the point I was trying to go for what was like the final decision you made,
00:06:33.015 → 00:06:46.044before you decided to venture out for you and of course always important for our listeners who are early stage first-time entrepreneurs how did you get your first client.00:06:47.229 → 00:06:53.534Okay as mentioned like my big trigger for me too,
00:06:53.576 → 00:07:07.964become an intrapreneur was I mean I grew a company from 40 to 200 people in ninety percent of the revenues came from me so I thought it’s not very fair I’m not getting any of the upside I got a couple I mean I made a half million.
00:07:08.348 → 00:07:23.043And I made 50 million for the others it just just just didn’t work out for me that sense I said look I got to do this for myself and so I started and I invested my money into my new Venture all of it,
00:07:23.121 → 00:07:32.072and I actually talked about in the fuck up night also how I actually burned it quite fast and I had some very exciting experience over there as well,
00:07:33.870 → 00:07:46.332so my first customer we how did I get them I was cause little bit through contacts you know talking to your network and trying to either tell them
00:07:46.149 → 00:07:54.146what you’re doing and so that’s how you basically when you first deals you know that’s where you willing to do.
00:07:54.503 → 00:08:00.420Killer deals for them right a lot of goodies for a good price just to get default on the ground right.
00:08:00.886 → 00:08:09.288And now take us through the Journey so basically you started some text recognition and.
00:08:09.807 → 00:08:23.718With AI and then somehow ended up with customer satisfaction how did this journey go and we may add that it was like more than 11 years ago that he found a cogia,
00:08:23.823 → 00:08:25.816yeah so it’s a long time,
00:08:25.939 → 00:08:34.035yeah you we pivoted a bit I we went through quite a bit of you know interesting evolutions,
00:08:34.149 → 00:08:49.033number one we wanted to go and do you know social media monitoring because that was exciting to me that’s big data I can use sentiment analysis you know with natural language processing which is the first piece actually considered.
00:08:49.273 → 00:08:57.180To be part of AI is NLP machine learning and deep learning so that’s actually the first introduction into that are world,00:08:57.186 → 00:09:04.958and we I thought I thought that area is so exciting it was Language Arts Complex to identify so this is,
00:09:04.973 → 00:09:09.621this is not that’s why we know we focus on the area of text mining sentiment analysis
00:09:09.609 → 00:09:20.028and you know the big data that means you know crawling technology we have actually a patent also out there for our crawler very unique methodology that we use.
00:09:20.169 → 00:09:31.766In calling the data so we started you know in in in the area of social media monitoring I thought this is the best place to apply our capability,
00:09:31.818 → 00:09:40.148dictate the capabilities text mining the capabilities you know crawling big amount of data because you know we we were specialized in Crawlers.
00:09:40.532 → 00:09:49.006I had that background we have that background and yeah that’s how we started and then we had fears competition coming out of the u.s.
00:09:49.444 → 00:09:58.116And unfortunately then we said okay but that’s getting not fun it’s a hot Market to win these marketing guys let’s find out when it’s and.
00:09:58.473 → 00:10:08.352That we identified that the niche that wasn’t occupied was customer satisfaction and here we were able to succeed and be better than the competitors.
00:10:08.583 → 00:10:16.121Like like small cogia is competing against qualtrics contracts right now value 24 billion,
00:10:16.208 → 00:10:29.930and we beat them 30 times in you know it’s like when having cold having like downstairs and 98 which is a soccer team in darmstadt where I’m from it’s sick leak.
00:10:30.485 → 00:10:39.410Come team beating Barcelona which is a Champion League Stevie 30 times so that was my triggers a look I’m actually Champions League in this area
00:10:39.371 → 00:10:47.412I should you know get the proper funding for that to that’s that when we get down to why I went to the listing area is trying to get the funding to help me,
00:10:47.419 → 00:10:56.325you know grow in O become a sustainable Champions League player not just lucky one that just was lucky for a season but I want to make it sustainable.
00:10:56.736 → 00:11:00.583Anyway so talking like in metaphase kind of thing.
00:11:01.012 → 00:11:09.855What do you do for this customer satisfaction before we get into how you got listed.
00:11:10.933 → 00:11:16.337I didn’t catch you a question in the beginning when you meet with customer satisfaction.
00:11:16.496 → 00:11:29.741What what kind of services yet actually provide their you monitor the behaviour of the clients on the website you basically analyze the feedback the social media content they are posting about your brand00:11:29.666 → 00:11:35.503what do you actually do there okay yeah in this case actually the majority of the customers.
00:11:36.049 → 00:11:44.658You know control the touchpoint even like through email with the internal customer base they once they had it’s more like in the after sale,
00:11:44.781 → 00:11:49.960so once you have had the contact with the company the company emails you with a link.
00:11:50.110 → 00:11:59.062And ask you if you experienced was that great that you would recommend it maybe would you recommend it to your friends or to your contacts.
00:11:59.221 → 00:12:06.921And that’s called net promoter score The NPS is the big thing that brought like a big drive for us,
00:12:06.963 → 00:12:15.842because it’s just reduces everything to one question 1 to 10 would you recommend this dealer this shop this product is company to you network to you friends.
00:12:15.992 → 00:12:19.317And and then the question is.
00:12:19.494 → 00:12:29.147Explain why you have giving like a 1 or 5 or 8 or 10 in that explanation of why is the text that we analyzed automatically,
00:12:29.261 → 00:12:41.228and classify and you know we are doing sentiment analysis their emotion analysis all those you know pattern recognition applications with that text.
00:12:41.540 → 00:12:48.655And we the main focus was analyzing those comments that came back via mail.
00:12:48.850 → 00:12:58.540It could be like a tent through the call center the call centers called the customers and they typed in the feedback and we had that digital feedback also analyzed.
00:12:58.699 → 00:13:08.163Now we expanded with social media interest because in the beginning they didn’t care that much word start due to Corona that enhance everything.
00:13:08.349 → 00:13:22.558So now they could you know avoid the fact that a you have to also look at your touch points social media because partially that’s the only way how you getting in touch with contact with the customers so you might want to analyze that
00:13:22.546 → 00:13:32.226touch point and that means like a Google Maps and your personal social media sites and and that that was a strength of our that we were able to hook into those
00:13:32.178 → 00:13:40.751apis and forums whatever is relevant we can catch that data very easily and integrated in your one Central customer satisfaction,
00:13:40.757 → 00:13:48.169dashboard and then also include like the whole process of creating a tissue management like tickets.
00:13:48.589 → 00:13:54.714Like that to assign somebody to take care of it okay now we get understanding.
00:13:54.855 → 00:14:01.960What do you been doing how you doing has been so far and now take us through the Journey of
00:14:01.958 → 00:14:12.439getting listed on the open market on the digital doffed Stock Exchange we may add that we will talk about two different legal entities for now
00:14:12.337 → 00:14:15.536um the Koga argued that the entity that
00:14:15.434 → 00:14:24.655actually listed and that is basically a PLC company so one that has shares that can get listed and a gmbh,
00:14:24.661 → 00:14:28.940which is something like a tele see LLC.
00:14:29.253 → 00:14:36.196Company that is privately in usually privately held and the shares are not supposed to be traded.
00:14:36.409 → 00:14:43.254So my understanding is you set up an additional company,
00:14:43.305 → 00:14:55.821cogia Argy and then got it listed on the OTC market on the Open Market at Düsseldorf Stock Exchange which is one of the smaller Stock Exchange operators
00:14:55.800 → 00:15:00.808here in Germany right correct while what I did is before I did that move.
00:15:01.076 → 00:15:11.404I created the AG which is in Germany for the people that listen to us internationally has a higher threshold to be created it requires.
00:15:11.725 → 00:15:16.634Compared to a gmbh for time or two times more amount of cash,
00:15:16.748 → 00:15:27.095minimum for small AG so you eat at least like you know 50,000 Euros that an agency founded which is a mini AG
00:15:27.092 → 00:15:32.091you can have the bigger our AG is based on a 3.5 million Capital right.
00:15:32.286 → 00:15:45.856But you know with 50,000 that’s the minimum and that’s quite a barrier of Entry having 50,000 Euros to start and then the gmbh by the way is only 20 12,500 Euros right.
00:15:46.402 → 00:15:49.727In terms of paid-in capital but
00:15:49.643 → 00:16:03.014we will try to keep the accounting terms as slow as low as possible so you set up this legal entity that can be listed and you got a cheers listed on the output,
00:16:03.110 → 00:16:10.828on the OTC market open market in Dusseldorf Stock Exchange and then what.00:16:12.328 → 00:16:15.644Okay so so first we created the AG.
00:16:16.208 → 00:16:24.025And we this mall before we get listed and then in then we introduced we did like a like a reverse takeover basically,00:16:24.085 → 00:16:29.544of my gmbh into the AG so that you have the operational business,
00:16:29.595 → 00:16:39.644in the AG right is like the holding structure and once you have done that you give the companies substance because without substance you can just get listed so
00:16:39.623 → 00:16:48.376the company had to have something and because its own all the assets of the gmbh that was the Baseline that we applied.
00:16:48.527 → 00:16:51.968To Dusseldorf if we could get listed now
00:16:51.929 → 00:17:03.293this is all of you know they go in you know you have to prepare everything you have to have your audited number books so there’s a whole whole work of things
00:17:03.254 → 00:17:10.099but you need to do before you can apply to a stock exchange try to get listed so all that homework needs to be done before.
00:17:10.357 → 00:17:16.229And one so you have to have all your audit paperwork all your all your stuff.
00:17:16.380 → 00:17:23.215Organized well prepared prepared expose like we created like you know like either you have a.
00:17:23.815 → 00:17:33.280Do a pamphlet like a brochure which is like you know 50,000 Euros that you have to pay so it’s can Market you going public.
00:17:33.466 → 00:17:38.600Project or you do it without it and then you still have to do a light Prospect.
00:17:38.885 → 00:17:45.442Which is at least like 30 pages all that work needs to be done with all your financials and your futures.
00:17:45.691 → 00:17:51.086Once you have all the prepared which takes you know quite a bit of time,
00:17:51.155 → 00:18:01.736and then you can try to apply at The Exchange in the exchange looks at your application and then besides you have to apply you have to present yourself like a chop,
00:18:01.796 → 00:18:15.329position almost right and explain to them why they should list you and you know give them faith that you are a good company to go with especially when you are kind of small like me I mean,
00:18:15.371 → 00:18:17.661we were really like a micro cap.
00:18:18.945 → 00:18:28.248So normally exchanges one people to have a little bit more beef on them so with for them considered like one of the smallest you know
00:18:28.245 → 00:18:41.931listings I think however what they liked was the big day today I technology the future that we’re bringing in our Outlook that we have great customers and the rollout I mean at that point I had,
00:18:41.964 → 00:18:49.286you know kind of informally already knew Ray that I’m going to win Volkswagen worldwide.
00:18:49.481 → 00:19:00.242I have BMW already included country so we have Lufthansa all those good things that they they found comfortable to go that route to let us go public.
00:19:01.310 → 00:19:11.675So that was the process so it was quite a hard process we didn’t apply only for digital we tried also other but just the way our timeline was quite tight we want it to be public.
00:19:11.951 → 00:19:23.224By the end of 2020 still right we came out on the 18th many of them didn’t want to do this stuff anymore there’s a where this holiday period it’s not not everybody is open.
00:19:23.816 → 00:19:26.735Pascal was missing near Hancock.
00:19:27.876 → 00:19:34.414Yeah Phoebus are bystanders will happen will be student magazine Alice food.
00:19:35.339 → 00:19:39.203Maru please cut the german-speaking part out thank you
00:19:39.201 → 00:19:48.656I guess you’ve been talking about like a micro cap I was I was looking we recording this on 15th of November
00:19:48.509 → 00:19:59.693and when I look at this you have a market capitalization somewhere around nine million u.s. dollars that’s not too big but
00:19:59.618 → 00:20:01.673it’s a Stark.
00:20:02.201 → 00:20:11.963And you were talking about like talking about a prospect so a prospectus that’s basically a document the lawyers,
00:20:12.068 → 00:20:23.279make for you basically they go through all your company and display in the appropriate legal way all the risk all opportunities,
00:20:23.294 → 00:20:27.627to to potential investors and they can go through it and after they’ve read it.
00:20:27.768 → 00:20:38.609In case you understand it it’s no easy language no easy numbers then you feel well prepared to actually invest their that is a what you guys doing
00:20:38.490 → 00:20:44.389when you look a little bit through the numbers in the investment relation investor relations.
00:20:44.710 → 00:20:49.439I really like that because then you really have a crate source
00:20:49.418 → 00:21:00.674off numbers here in Germany is since many companies are pop are privately held you don’t get access to all the numbers and I realized.
00:21:01.049 → 00:21:13.583You guys did not post any revenue for 20 20 or 20 21 but it’s more an accounting gimmick than actually missing Revenue.
00:21:14.760 → 00:21:15.339Right.00:21:16.155 → 00:21:26.862Yeah it’s just what it needs to be publisher we did this what we had to buy the balances that we have to publish we publish to of course we are forced to publish.
00:21:27.390 → 00:21:31.597And that what is required and legal requirements we publish of course.
00:21:32.278 → 00:21:44.659Exactly and so the since you’re doing zero Revenue right now according to your investor relations document it’s a growth investment or how is the story there.
00:21:45.520 → 00:21:47.036It’s across investment.
00:21:48.815 → 00:21:57.748And we are using we’re trying to raise money also to help us grow not just invest for growth and inorganic growth,
00:21:57.863 → 00:22:03.843but to also have an organic growth so that means we are looking to raise money.
00:22:04.281 → 00:22:10.010Sorry to do Mas merger and acquisition strategic mergers and Acquisitions to help accelerate the growth.
00:22:10.151 → 00:22:17.328So the growth has two components to it because the organic and an organic method.
00:22:17.749 → 00:22:21.541That’s why elastic was our first acquisition by the way.
00:22:22.070 → 00:22:35.990So we’ve said it will promise we’re going to do it and we executed I was pretty excited I was able to you know execute very fast after my Capital race on my first MMA which I you know announced that I was planning to do with this.
00:22:36.617 → 00:22:46.397So it has to be growth investment right yeah so we have currently with the AG which is listed we have 20 Revenue right.
00:22:46.754 → 00:22:59.720Because a because I however have done the consolidation we entered introduce the gmbh into the mother company basically the holding now that’s how the mother company can consolidate and present the revenue.
00:22:59.861 → 00:23:12.224And and with other Acquisitions it all also consolidate or when we grow it consolidates as well because the growth will be shown in the AG numbers so that’s how we,
00:23:12.275 → 00:23:17.364can start with a fresh company that actually has zero Revenue like a holding structure.
00:23:17.515 → 00:23:27.168And and be listed with it because it uses the revenue of its daughter companies basically and can consolidate it as its own Revenue to the outside world.
00:23:27.939 → 00:23:32.560Bottom line for everybody without an accounting degree.
00:23:32.701 → 00:23:45.803You can only show the revenues at the end of the year because the company says ok that’s all that I own and that’s all the revenues I’m showing and it shows the subsidiary revenues of kogi are there.
00:23:45.971 → 00:23:50.835Exactly so thank you Joe it was a difficult birth,
00:23:50.931 → 00:24:04.977but I appreciate it for your help yeah so you’re listed for many reasons including the opportunity to make a takeover you’ve already acquired a company can you take us through this journey there,
00:24:05.092 → 00:24:16.473exactly so part of our growth strategy is the an organic growth so we had looked at the Target already I’ve started it last year,
00:24:16.479 → 00:24:25.377October November October October I started looking at it and then we reached out to the Target and how much it started to cost.
00:24:25.653 → 00:24:27.600And that’s when we went public.
00:24:27.858 → 00:24:38.205And that’s why in irate we raised some money and that was the Baseline that we use while we did that we had already discussions and have a term sheet or it.
00:24:38.346 → 00:24:46.766Plan even though we didn’t have even have yet any money yet but we were planning to get it so that was a you know a plan behind it,
00:24:46.835 → 00:24:59.117so all that process work in parallel and then once we successfully did our placement so test for placement right now we did it in May June May June roughly in that time period,
00:24:59.150 → 00:25:01.611we raced 1.5 million euros.
00:25:01.770 → 00:25:13.080So I have with that the Baseline of my first payment installment payment of my acquisition which is elastic which you are totally excited we bought elastic dot IO
00:25:13.050 → 00:25:21.029it’s an I pass it’s an integration platform as a service and we just bought it September 10.
00:25:21.269 → 00:25:24.233And that was it was a big Act,
00:25:24.357 → 00:25:36.791it was an exciting process to go through all the due diligence we went from a human to diligence I make sure I had the management behind it because I wouldn’t even do the move needed to make sure I don’t lose anybody.00:25:37.041 → 00:25:40.383Being in the IP space in software.
00:25:40.633 → 00:25:52.834The capital of the in an asset is not the tangibles but then the non tangibles meaning the people might might my assets so the most important thing for me was not to lose anybody.
00:25:59.920 → 00:26:27.370Music.
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