Finance Automation for SMEs: How Moss is Redefining Financial Operations
- Jörn Menninger
- Jul 17
- 37 min read
🚀 Management Summary
Startuprad.io dives deep with Ante Spittler, co-founder and CEO of Moss, a Berlin-based fintech powerhouse revolutionizing financial operations for SMEs. This post explores Moss’s journey from startup to scaleup, the evolution of their intelligent finance stack, and the future of AI-powered finance in the DACH region. Perfect for founders, CFOs, and investors navigating Europe’s dynamic fintech landscape.
📚 Table of Contents
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Why Finance Automation is the Future for SMEs
Finance automation is transforming how SMEs handle budgets, approvals, and compliance. Manual workflows—spreadsheets, email approvals, and paper receipts—are being replaced with intelligent software like Moss. This shift promises not only efficiency but strategic insights to help businesses scale faster
Finance automation uses software tools to streamline financial processes like expense management, accounts payable, and budgeting. For SMEs, it reduces manual effort, enhances compliance, and enables real-time financial insights.
❓ What is Moss and How Does It Work?
Moss provides a full-stack finance platform designed for SMEs in Europe. Its core offerings include:
Corporate credit cards with real-time spend tracking.
Automated receipt matching and expense categorization.
Accounts payable and cash flow management.
AI-powered financial insights for CFOs.
With over 300,000 cards issued and €5B+ annual payment volume, Moss is a category leader in the DACH fintech space
How Moss Tackles Pain Points in SME Finance
European SMEs face challenges like fragmented ERP systems, slow approvals, and regulatory complexity. Moss addresses these by:
✅ Offering a unified platform for all finance tasks.
✅ Simplifying ERP integrations (NetSuite, SAP, Xero).
✅ Maintaining enterprise-grade compliance and BaFin licensing.
✅ Delivering an intuitive, user-first experience.
This approach eliminates “tool sprawl” and positions Moss as the iPhone of finance software for SMEs.
The Role of AI in Modern Financial Operations
Moss isn’t stopping at automation—it’s building intelligence into finance. Ante Spittler describes how Moss’s AI automates 19 out of 20 finance tasks when an invoice is submitted, freeing teams to focus on strategic growth.
Future possibilities include:
AI-powered cash flow forecasting.
Embedded treasury and FP&A tools.
Voice-assisted financial planning.
Lessons from Scaling a Regulated Fintech in Europe
Scaling in a regulated environment like fintech demands resilience. Spittler’s key insights:
Hiring Right Matters: Onboarding leaders properly is critical.
Iterate Fast, But Think Long-Term: Pivot early on bad bets.
Balance Founder Life: Avoid burnout to sustain the journey.
These lessons are vital for any founder operating in the highly competitive DACH startup ecosystem.
🧵 Further Reading
The Ultimate Guide to Startup Funding in the DACH Region
Top Fintech Startups Revolutionizing European Finance
🎥 The Video Podcast
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🎧 The Audio Podcast
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📝 About the Author
Jörn “Joe” Menninger is the founder and host of Startuprad.io — one of Europe’s top startup podcasts. Joe's work is featured in Forbes, Tech.eu, and more. He brings 15+ years of expertise in consulting, strategy, and startup scouting.
✅ FAQs
1️⃣ What is finance automation for SMEs?
Finance automation for SMEs means using intelligent software to handle financial tasks like budgeting, expense tracking, and compliance. It replaces manual processes such as spreadsheets, helping small businesses save time, reduce errors, and get real-time insights.
2️⃣ How does Moss help German startups with expense management?
Moss simplifies expense management by issuing corporate cards, automating receipt matching, and integrating with German tax requirements. It enables startups to streamline approvals, track spending in real-time, and stay compliant with BaFin regulations.
3️⃣ Can Moss integrate with SAP and NetSuite?
Yes. Moss integrates with ERP systems like SAP, NetSuite, Xero, and DATEV. This allows SMEs to sync financial data, automate workflows, and avoid double entry across systems.
4️⃣ What are the benefits of AI in financial operations?
AI in financial operations speeds up tasks like invoice categorization and compliance checks. It reduces human error, delivers predictive insights, and enables CFOs to make smarter decisions with real-time analytics.
5️⃣ Why are fintechs like Moss crucial for the DACH startup ecosystem?
Fintechs like Moss drive digitization in the DACH region, helping SMEs modernize finance operations, navigate complex tax rules, and compete globally. They fill the gap left by outdated legacy systems.
6️⃣ How did Moss raise €180M in venture funding?
Moss secured €180M from top VCs like Cherry Ventures and Valar Ventures by demonstrating strong growth in SME finance automation and processing over €5 billion in annual payments.
7️⃣ What pain points does Moss solve for CFOs?
Moss eliminates manual finance workflows, reduces receipt management headaches, and provides CFOs with actionable data dashboards. This helps finance teams move from reactive to strategic decision-making.
8️⃣ How does Moss’s AI automate 95% of invoice processing?
Moss’s AI reads invoices, extracts key data (like service dates and cost centers), and applies accounting rules automatically. This allows 19 out of 20 tasks to run without manual intervention.
9️⃣ Is finance automation secure for SMEs in Germany?
Yes. Moss operates under BaFin licenses and uses enterprise-grade security standards. German SMEs benefit from encrypted data storage and full GDPR compliance.
🔟 What trends are shaping the future of SME finance in Europe?
Key trends include AI-powered financial insights, embedded treasury tools, cross-border payment solutions, and tighter ERP integrations for seamless workflows.
Give us Feedback!
Let us know who you are and what you do. Give us feedback on what we do and what we could do better. Happy to hear from each and every one of you guys out there!
The Host & Guest
The host in this interview is Jörn “Joe” Menninger, startup scout, founder, and host of Startuprad.io. And guest is Ante Spittler, co-founder and CEO of Moss. Reach out to them:
📅 Automated Transcript
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:00]:
What if the future of finance isn't in spreadsheets or banks, but in software that actually understands your business? Today's guest helped build one of Europe's fastest growing fintech platforms, empowering thousands of SMEs to automate, spend, master real time budgeting and finally ditch the chaos of manual finance workflows. From corporate cards to E money licenses, from P2 till backing debuffing compliance, this founder's story is real redefining what finance ops can be. Stay tuned. This once a master class for modern CFO, SaaS, builders and startup fans alike. Welcome to Startup Rad IO, your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German startup scene with news, interviews and live events. Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate IO bringing you another exclusive deep dive into the minds shaping the future of startup finance and technology across Europe. Today I'm joined by Ante Splitter, the CEO and co founder of moss, a Berlin based fintech scale up that's become a category leader in Spanish event management and finance automation for SMEs German Kaimus.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:01:25]:
If you're a founder, CFO or operator tired of juggling receipts, budget approvals and end of month chaos like everybody is, you want to listen closely. Musk is building the most intelligent finance stack for European businesses, unifying everything from copper cards and accounts payable to real time insights, pre counting automation and embedded payments all wrapped in a user first experience. They've issued over 300,000 credit cards, raised 180 million in venture capital from the likes of Vala Ventures and Cherry Ventures and now processes more than 5 billion euro in annualized payment volume, all while maintaining Baffin's licensing and enterprise grade compliance. Ante brings a unique lens to this space with roots in investment banking and venture capital, plus the scars and lessons of building a high profile growth fintech from ground up. Today we unpack his founder story, most products, evolution and the high stakes future of AI powered finance for SMBs. Ante, great to have you on startup radio. Welcome to the show.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:02:39]:
Hello Jern. Likewise. Very glad to be here.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:02:43]:
This was quite an introduction. I really like that one. And of course we'll dig a little bit deeper but let me start out with asking. You were once deep in fines like investment banking, VC consulting. What was the specific pain or moment that make you say ah, forget spreadsheets, let's rebuild finance ops from scratch for European small and medium businesses at the typical frustration of an analyst or investor with Excel doesn't count. Everybody experiences that.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:03:18]:
Yeah, it's a honestly things came Together while I was building my prior business together with Anton, who is also co founder in this company. And it was a marketplace startup. We grew very quickly to decent size. So within the first two years we had more than 25 million revenue. And everything was centered around expansion. As you can imagine, what was really behind was our finance setup. So after 18 months, 18, 24 months, we realized if we don't get a grip on finance now, it's going to kill us, like literally. Um, and then, so what followed was a significant cleanup with temporary resources, you know, our internal team trying to find invoices, receipts.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:04:15]:
It was a total chaos and it took, I would say at least six months to clean up and another six months to, you know, properly close the books and run to the audit. And, and I think this was the moment that that kind of sparked my hate and passion, if I may say, hate for the situation we had, but also the passion for there needs to be a better way. And then it took a while longer until it really became the vision for Moss. So it was not that right after I got extremely excited to continue with the finance suite. Instead I spent a year in venture capital and, and they realized it's a ton of other companies that have very similar pains. And this is what together has led to actually launching the company. Thinking about the vision, thinking about the first product. And yeah, now six years later, we're still here.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:05:18]:
Actually, when you talked about the love hate relationship with the finance department, in my mind there was somebody looking very much like Sigmund Freud wearing glasses and ask, could you, could you elaborate at your love hate relationship there? But let's forget about that. You guys must launch with bold ambitions, corporate cards, automation and now full spend orchestration. What was the first moment with friction make you doubt whether European SMEs were ready for this shift?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:05:54]:
Look, honestly, the market is still fairly early if you think about the customer adoption curve. Yeah, so the famous S curve, we're still pretty far on the left. And the main competitor has been and still is manual workflows, it's literally Excel, it's email signature folders, especially with SMBs. So basically everything that finance teams has found as a workaround to get the job done. And after we started, we managed to launch this first incredible product. Yeah, and we were super lucky that we actually also started with that product. And it was a cards issuing platform, a cards management platform, as you said. And then on top, the expense, expense tooling.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:06:45]:
So how can I process the receipts, how can I connect with finance and.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:06:49]:
All of those Things we may add most people, 80, 80% here from listeners at least on the audio podcast, are from Germany, Austria and Switzerland. But we do have a lot of viewers, especially on long form YouTube, who are not familiar with the system. So basically you first make your card expenses and then you have to get also for the tax authorities, a receipt, an invoice that matches this expense. And you have to do this depending on your size and every month, every quarter, every year. And it's a big headache. It's one of the reasons I have fewer hairs.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:07:27]:
Yeah, like one really interesting point. And honestly, I only got to learn this a bit later. Yeah, I realize. Yeah, it's so obvious. But then somehow it's also so crazy. In business, every single transaction, no matter if you spend five bucks on a coffee or if you buy a lunch for a client or if you invest hundreds of thousands or millions in machinery, everything has to be administered. Like every euro, there is no black, there is no hole in the, in the cash. You know, like it's, everything needs to be done.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:07:58]:
So having said that, the administration is very significant burden. And now to get back kind of to your question, the biggest, the biggest point of friction, the biggest question for us was will we be able to pass beyond that cards platform and being a cards and spend management company to becoming a much bigger finance suite? Because of course, the vision was to go into this bigger finance suite and the vision was to be able to tailor to accountants and controllers for a much bigger, much bigger domain. And, and this was a tough ride.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:08:38]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:08:39]:
So once you have the first product, when it works, getting to the next one is almost like starting a new company.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:08:46]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:08:46]:
It was a pretty significant kind of learning experience and point of friction for us. And also doubt.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:08:52]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:08:52]:
On how the European SMEs will react.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:08:57]:
You moved from an investor to operator, from finance theory to infrastructure execution. How did becoming a founder and especially a regulated fintech CEO r reshape how you saw yourself and your work?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:09:16]:
Yeah, look, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's very hard.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:09:19]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:09:20]:
The job is very hard and it's very demanding. I guess it's true for many jobs, but I need to say it's particularly hard and demanding based on my experience. And the crazy thing is the role changes constantly all the time.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:09:35]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:09:36]:
So with every new wave of hires, the, with every new executive that joins the team, with every new priority for the quarterly OKR cycle, for the strategy for the next year, a new market entry, every new kind of fire in a Team is always changing your priorities as a CEO. It will always impact on which decisions you take, what you focus on, et cetera, et cetera. So what it really taught me is to become multivariate.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:10:07]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:10:07]:
It sounds now very technical, but basically be able to switch context very quickly. So now we're recording this podcast. After that, it's going to be something entirely different. Yeah. I'm not going to have a coffee with a different reporter. But also to take decisions fast.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:10:25]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:10:26]:
Especially the small ones. But then take a lot more time for the tougher decisions to shape culture. Like things that never were on my agenda. Right. As a consultant or in any other profession, you're basically kind of getting shaped by the culture and not you're responsible for shaping that culture. So what I want to say is it's a ton of setbacks. You have to live with those. You have to develop a positive mindset.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:10:52]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:10:52]:
Otherwise you go crazy. And you need a fighter attitude.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:10:57]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:10:57]:
It needs to be this willingness to win, the willingness to fight, because there is a market, there are players, and you are the new kid on the block.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:11:07]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:11:08]:
You want to achieve something great, but you're nothing. You have maybe some cash from a fundraiser, you have a couple of people on your team, and now you want to become something big. And this kind of is, I think, one of the main ways how it shaped me personally.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:11:26]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:11:26]:
And also professionally.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:11:29]:
Yeah.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:30]:
Just trying to think this through. When you talked about a new executive coming into the team, it's like when you have a new team member, some of your jobs get absorbed by this person. You get to do more, but also you have to think more, because it's not that you need to write email, abc, but you need to tell this person what to achieve in a month, in a year, and so on and so forth. So you need much more time to think ahead.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:11:59]:
Yeah, 100%. And it changes dynamics because maybe first you were also execution responsible.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:06]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:06]:
So maybe first you were the person that worked together with the team on getting the job done, and now suddenly it's exactly what you said. Suddenly you're the context giver.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:15]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:16]:
You're direction giver. You kind of. You're the control tower. To make sure we stay on course. You work together, you help.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:22]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:23]:
And this is. And this is constantly changing as the company evolves.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:29]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:29]:
From. From good to bad.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:12:31]:
I actually like the picture of the control tower. Because you're avoiding the crash.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:35]:
Yeah, of course.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:12:36]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:36]:
Yeah. I mean, it's. Especially with tech companies where one of the key strengths Is to be agile.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:43]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:44]:
So one of the key strengths is to learn fast, to break things, to iterate from there. Which also means realize where things maybe are not going not on the right path.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:54]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:12:54]:
And I can give you, if you like, and give you like a very clear example. We once decided to focus on a customer segment that was a bit outside of our ideal customer profile. And, and that customer segment faced a little bit lower complexity in finance, but actually, you know, had some of the pains. And we went after that segment and tested how is it reacting now? Once we had enough learnings to know what works, what doesn't work. It's so mission critical to make sure that this information tickles across all of the teams. Because the marketing team is going to continue driving, driving traffic, they're going to train your driving, investing and same on an outbound sales motion. They need to know whether they should continue focusing or not. So it's really hard to keep this communication best in class to make sure that everybody has the context and knows what they have to do in this very quickly changing dynamics.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:13:59]:
And I was wondering, because I've seen quite frequently when I was still a consultant in large companies that you did this with regular calls, weekly or monthly, where people participated and they worked through items, but actually they tended to get bloated and bloated and you could hear the people not paying attention and tapping in the background and all that stuff. Have you found a better way to do that?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:14:26]:
You mean with my team or for myself?
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:14:29]:
Both.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:14:30]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:14:31]:
So look, I'm really, really, really bad at multitasking. Anybody will confirm. So the only way is don't even try. And this is going to avoid the typing, it's going to avoid the confusion and if it happens, people will realize immediately and it's not going to be supportive. So for me personally, it's 100% presence. If you're doing it, just be present, take your notes, be, you know, pay a ton of attention, etc, etc. On the other side, I guess there is, I don't know, it's difficult. Right.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:15:09]:
Ideally you don't want to have so big calls. Right. You don't want to have calls where there are eight to 10 people on it and especially not if people have the time to do other stuff on the sides.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:15:20]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:15:20]:
Then it sounds almost like the audience is too big. So maybe, maybe what we try to do is we try to steer kind of ex ante on what is the audience, how can we keep it to the ones that are actually working on it, designing it, because then There is almost like no chance to escape.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:15:38]:
I'm personally always torn between doing such calls with, as you already said, the smallest possible audience or working with stuff like to do lists where you just send around to do lists. But the problem is then always people lack the context there or misinterpret interpret what is there.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:15:57]:
Yeah, yeah, the context setting is really important but I guess like the, the magic lies somewhere in the middle.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:16:04]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:16:05]:
So async, Async, whatever can be done, especially in written form. I think sometimes written form can reinforce things and bring things also back on the same page later really, really effectively. But then when, when there is a, the benefit of a discussion, benefit of questions, then probably it's better to, to just jump on the meeting.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:16:28]:
Exactly. From our awesome audience, I would like to know what moment made you believe in your startup, share in the comments or tag us on social media until your darkest day. Moss made headlines with layoffs like many other scale ups navigating the Fintech winter. Take us to that day. What was happening behind the scenes and what helped you push forward?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:16:54]:
Yeah, it was horrible. Honestly it was horrible, especially because in total it took 12 to 18 months. So we're not speaking about one specific day, we're speaking about the whole journey that the company has to go through and that we also had to go through. The context was fairly straightforward. Markets turned, we were over optimized on growth and that setup was not fit for purpose anymore. The burn relative to growth ambitions and especially to cash. And the years of Runway was not in line. So we had to take action on the other side.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:17:35]:
We also made this promise. Right. So we hired people, we kind of gave them an implicit or even explicit promise. We're going to do our best to try to make this company and you successful. Yeah, we're going to try to coach you, to train you, to develop you, but we're also going to want to create equity value in this company. And then we had investors that gave us a ton of money that we also promised we're going to do something great with that money. It's a gene is the right roi, you know, you should invest here. So honestly, there was also not really a way out.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:18:11]:
Yeah, I think if you're serious about those things and if you're more accomplished, it's kind of on the, on the fighter side. When it's uncomfortable, you will still have to grind through it and. Yeah. And then we just had to get our shit together. Yeah. Honestly and literally we had to understand where to think about what is the Future, that is a must have. What are the strategic priors? What is the team set up? What are the regrets? And no regrets. Calculate this through, you know, through business case sessions and everything that's needed.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:18:47]:
Discuss with the board, discuss with people, team. Think about all of the consequences that it means for the employees. You know, it's like, it's pretty significant.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:18:57]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:18:57]:
Because the market was in a downturn in general. So I would say very heavy lifting and deliberate thinking with many backs and forwards to then kind of pull through. And now kind of the second wave, second phase starts.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:19:15]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:19:16]:
So now you kind of completed your first milestone. The culture needs to get, needs to be brought back on track. And that's very, very, very hard. So here we learned our most painful lessons. How, how to get the motivation back when effectively there was a severe issue.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:19:35]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:19:36]:
When effectively things failed. And, and this took a year. Now it's very. Now it's great again. We are, we're so happy. Energy level is super high. Team is, is motivated, pumped company grows. All of those things are now in a good spot.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:19:51]:
But to get there was a very slow, gradual and painful process.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:19:58]:
You already talked in the beginning that you have a co founder. Let's talk a little bit about the team demanding dynamics here. Moss scaled to 250 plus people, processed over 5 billion euro in payments and added key leaders like jan Stehler from N26. What was a painful lesson you learned about hiring trust or involving your leadership team?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:20:23]:
Yeah. So as I said before, the switch from individual contributor, even like a co founder, mostly in the beginning you just execute to a manager is pretty painful. And I think the biggest kind of thing we had to accept is it's hard skills and it's not talent or soft skills or whatsoever. Yeah, they come into play a little bit. But there is a, it's a hard skill to manage other people and to do it right.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:20:51]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:20:53]:
And at the starting point, what is, I think is the most important element is the hiring process itself. It's about the talent bar that is set. It's about the expectations being very, very clear. What do we actually need? What is the type of profile? What should they have seen in the past? What is the minimum experience level? What are also markers that make me believe that this candidate is worth speaking and is more kind of interesting versus someone else. Right. Because we have a. There is a huge market out there. Out there.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:21:27]:
How does best in class look like? You know, like I'm sure you had the situation where you interviewed someone and you realized I must hire that person.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:21:36]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:21:37]:
It's like it's this very rare case and the 1% or whatsoever where you're so excited you think this is the perfect fit. So how can I make sure that that best in class kind of is visible at scale? This I think is really number one. But then what comes next is the onboarding journey. And I think here we made mistakes pretty significant and I think almost everyone has made those mistakes unless they are already much further in their career. It's so much context that is centered in your heads that only you have. It's.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:22:11]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:22:11]:
Or your co founder or a couple of people in the company that needs to make a transition. Right. So for the new leader to do a good job, they almost need the same context that you have.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:22:24]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:22:24]:
And it's how to do this while everything is moving fast, while you're super busy, while you need to kind of give them the right information at the right time, keep them focused, you know, plug in other people, I think is very, very, very, very hard. So I would say the, the most painful lesson has indeed been mainly around being really good in onboarding. It's too expensive if it fails.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:22:51]:
The first few days, the first month, they're decisive in what kind of habits people get in. And that's actually we want to set it up properly so that people can really understand who is there. It doesn't help if you get hired and your boss is not there for the first two. You just by habit report to somebody else and when the new boss comes back, you'd still talk more to the other person. That's for example, something I have experience which is not great. Let's talk a little bit about emotional toll. You're building a highly. In a highly regulated space with aggressive growth and investor expectations.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:23:34]:
How has this journey impacted your professional identity, mental health or family life, especially as a father?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:23:42]:
Yeah. It's kind of the magic question. Right. And how I like to boil it down. Then I'm going to give you some specifics.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:23:52]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:23:53]:
But how I like to boil it down and challenge myself is am I happy in the current setup? So how it's going right now, is this giving me happiness and joy or is it not? And fortunately I can still answer the question with yes. Like I do not want to be. I really want to run this company. I really want to work my founders with all of the colleagues here. I love the mission, I really enjoy working on finance, etc. Etc. Etc. There is a big however though.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:24:24]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:24:24]:
And the however is it has a lot of cost yeah. So first, first in the first two years of my, of my first son and then also second son got born roughly 15 months later. I did not sufficiently see them.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:24:40]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:24:41]:
So I had to pay the price of not being sufficiently there. And only after those two years I caught up with some paternity leave.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:24:49]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:24:49]:
A month. A month to spend with the kids. And this was not a good thing.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:24:55]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:24:55]:
I want to clearly say this was, this was a big cost to carry, but I also miss my tennis routine, you know, in many cases or I deprioritized. So. So one part of the learning journey was also it's not going to be sustainable. It's not going to work long term. And in particular it will not. You will not be able to answer the question of are you happy with the setup? With the. Yes. If there is no balance.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:25:24]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:25:25]:
So right now, in the last two years basically revise some of those decisions.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:25:31]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:25:32]:
And how to approach it and have found some more balance. It doesn't mean it's a good work life balance. It's horrible with two small kids and the company to run. But the sacrifices are very, you know, are different.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:25:48]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:25:49]:
So maybe it's seeing some friends less often. Maybe it's skipping a conference or, or, or a dinner. Yeah, attack dinner in the evening. Maybe it's something, you know, it's like other things you can still control to make sure you don't go mad.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:26:06]:
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. That's also something I had to learn. For example, what I. I've been adjusting my whole lifestyle, my whole life. For example, before 9 I usually don't do any course because I drop off my. My two sons at kindergarten. Mondays I get to sleep in because my wife gets also a day on the weekend. And so I get up late, I do lunch and then I start working because I do have a lot of customers and clients in the US and they like to do really late calls.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:26:41]:
And so on Mondays they can book me until like 23:00 o'clock in the evening on Mondays. But you cannot do this by starting at 9am Plus I also learned the really hard way that you have to take off the weekends, at least for me. No work, no work emails and stuff like that. There was a tough lot, tough thing to learn. But in the beginning you just work, work, work and then at one point your body screams no, stop. That's something exactly I learned as well. Guys, we'll be back after a short app break talking, for example, about a make or break moment. Founder misconceptions and market surprises.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:27:29]:
Hey guys, welcome back with Ant, the CEO and co founder of Moss, a Berlin based fintech startup that raised 180 million years so far from investors including Cherry Ventures. We linked it here in the show notes our interview with Cherry and Peter Thiel's Vala Ventures. Ante, let's talk about a make or break moment. Was there a point perhaps during the rebrand or during regulatory approval where you had to decide do we pivot, pause or push through no matter what?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:28:12]:
We had many of those moments and the earlier you take them kind of the smaller the moment is. This is kind of a little bit of the philosophy that we have. It's a continuum. So by being on top of data, by being on top of kind of the strategy and what actually needs to be done, what the vision is, and then following through with early signals, we had multiple of those points.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:28:41]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:28:41]:
So we, we, we, we asked ourselves, for example, shall we expand more internationally? Yeah, like, very fundamental question. It's a massive distraction for all of the teams. The product needs to be brought up to speed. Ton of other, other reasons why it's a distraction, but also how it can drive revenue. The second big one was do we really go for our own license?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:29:11]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:29:12]:
Do we, do we, do we really want to get regulated and build the team that is needed to run to be compliant or do we rely on third parties? There is a banking as a service providers currently the question is when do we expand beyond spend management? This is a pivotal moment for the company as the product suite suddenly becomes much more comprehensive. So yeah, there are 100%, there are those moments and you will have to take a decision on do we do it or do we not do it. And hopefully most of those moments are happy moments. Hopefully. It's not a moment where you say we have to pause, we have to shut down the market, we have to shut down the product, we have to stop the company. This will be horrible. Of course.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:30:05]:
I see. Yeah, it's a steady fight. I would say that's also how it feels here. Talking a little bit about founder misconceptions, what did you absolutely misjudge in the early days of Moss? Either about the market, your customer, or what it takes to truly digitize a finance department.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:30:31]:
I can, I can, I can tell you a little secret that maybe it's not really a secret.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:30:36]:
Don't worry, it will be just between you and me and like 50,000 listeners on the podcast.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:30:42]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:30:43]:
Then that's fair. That's okay with this. Secret is fair. If someone has not. Not misjudged a ton of things, then they probably didn't start the business. The. My main point is it's. There is such a huge ocean of unknowns and there are so crazy big complexities that if you take them, if you look at them from a starting point, it's a wall that you cannot climb.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:31:18]:
There is no way you will ever launch a company. If you knew all of the obstacles, you would just not do it and no one would give you money for it.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:31:28]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:31:30]:
So one example, we got super passionate about the broader finance suite. We had to find a minimum viable product, though. And it's this kind of. It's the one shot you have. You collect the seed funding, you build the first product. You want to show some traction. If you pick the wrong piece, you're dead.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:31:50]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:31:50]:
And it can try to raise new money, but very likely it's not going to work. So we were super nervous about it, of course. And then we picked something that retrospectively was actually way too complex.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:32:05]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:32:06]:
So we thought we can launch a next generation credit card like the first of its kind, but not in a way like banks do it.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:32:14]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:32:14]:
American Express or any other bank. It was a platform where customers could issue physical virtual cards with one mouse click. Set limits. Do like a ton of stuff that you cannot even do.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:32:31]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:32:32]:
Like this whole card issuing platform was just a beast. And then on top, it had the finance suite.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:32:39]:
Right.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:32:39]:
So how do I connect? How do I. How do I now attach receipts to single transactions? How do I assign accounting categories? How do I do the coding? How do I connect with Data or with NetSuite or with Exact. With Xero, like all of those ERP systems, we entirely misjudged the complexity of doing this. Fortunately, the consequence was it was just very painful and took a bit longer. But. But it still kind of worked out and we saw many of those things again.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:33:13]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:33:13]:
I remember the day when we're sitting in the Cherry office. It was an off site. We always ask them if we can work in their big boardroom. They have a nice room. It's a bit detached from the office. So we go there and then we discuss the serious stuff. And I remember when we discussed the serious decision, when are we. Are we like, are we going to leave the territory of Amex and now expand into accounts payables or not?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:33:37]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:33:37]:
Do we want to build a suite where customers can also process all of their incoming receipts?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:33:43]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:33:43]:
That's very different from card transactions. And I also remember that when we took the decision yes. We brutally underestimated the requirements. So this is three years ago. We're still working on the product and expanding the product. I think the short and sweet answer is if you don't misjudge to a certain degree, you're probably never start. You should not entirely kind of fail, but you will definitely misjudge.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:34:14]:
Yeah. That's also what I felt when he said that if you really know how big the problem is, you likely won't start here. You've described Moss as finance software that actually works like your team does. What trait in yourself once felt like a liability and and ended up shaping Mosso's user first design.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:34:44]:
Yeah. So there is an interesting insight about this, about this industry and also here it actually took a while to get there. Even though it's super simple. Finance and finance software were almost the first proper. It was like first technology.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:35:04]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:35:04]:
So amongst the first. Yeah, let's call it like this. So what I want to say with this, the ERP systems like SAP or accounting software, it was the early days of digitization, of putting codes into a piece of software to run something in a digital way. Having said that, they are their biggest, biggest, biggest pain. If you boil it down to kind of all of the pains that exist is the user experience.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:35:36]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:35:37]:
It's not that they don't offer functionality. They have the broadest suite of functionality. They had 20, 30 years of time to build all single functionality. Where it breaks is the user experience. It's not state of art. It doesn't adhere to the standards, neither in design nor in the flows. It's maybe less user centric, it's maybe more infrastructure centric. Not all data is available kind of.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:36:07]:
That's actually their biggest pain. So what we understood and I'm so happy that our lead product designer, Moritz, who was the only person in that team when we started, got this very early, is we will only be able to create this. A very distinct and long term differentiating factor. If we exceed customer expectations on user experience. We have to take an entirely different lens. How we look at those workflows, how we design the platform, how we incrementally optimize it.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:36:46]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:36:47]:
Over and over again, small stuff, big stuff. To create this compounding effect of a superpower. And I think in this regard we are very proud and we know it's true and the market confirms it. Moss does have the best user experience. If an, if an accountant, a controller, business owner, a tax advisor, if they, if they want to have this iPhone like experience.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:37:12]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:37:12]:
You find everything by Yourself pretty much the connections make sense. You can find, you can, you have the right settings that you need and that's an objective that we widely have achieved. Yeah, entirely. Will be too optimistic. Ton of stuff to still do but. But much better than anyone else in the market. Mm hmm.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:37:36]:
I was wondering if I could ask our audience the same question. What was one founder trait you've turned from a liability to superpower? Maybe even with your co founder. Let us know on AX BlueSky threads or LinkedIn. With over 5000 SMEs onboarded, what unexpected insight changed the way you understood CFO workflows, span patterns or ERP integration pain points?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:38:10]:
Yeah, there is. So first I think it's important to segment the market a little bit.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:38:15]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:38:15]:
Now it's getting, I don't want to get too technical but just for the, for the audience also to get a better understanding. There are small businesses, right? Micro enterprises could be a solo trader, one person, could be two, could be five, but basically a very simple and kind of easy to communicate setup. Then there is the mid segment. It's the companies to start with, let's say 10 employees and then go up to 500 or thousand. It's kind of the traditional kaimo as you said, the traditional SMBs to choose like English words. And then there is mid market enterprise companies that operate globally, have huge organizations, many entities, etc. Etc. In that mid segment.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:38:59]:
And this is our core and this is where kind of the, the biggest share of the GDP lies. Yeah, this is kind of the biggest segment in terms of kind of the GDP in business. The very surprising insight was that they are not zero digitized. It's not like that. There is no software they use. I mean they use anyways accounting software and erp. But even beyond that the point was it was very unsophisticated single point software.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:39:35]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:39:35]:
So for example there is a tool that allows you to build approvals. So you as a company you want to stay on top and control what people buy. So what you do, you build an approval flow and now you want to buy something for 10k. Someone needs to sign off and not doing this kind of an accident or via email or via signatures. The only way is to bring it into a tool. The challenge though is if you have one or two or three of those tools, you have to manage your workforce on the tool. You have to onboard them, they have to log in, they have to run the process and like who wants to have three, four different tools to get the job done. It's like it's a nightmare.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:40:20]:
So the kind of. The most interesting insight was there are tools out there, but they have one big deficit. They don't connect the dots. They are isolated pain points. It's isolated solutions. They are not connected to the broader software landscape. They are covering only fractions of the pains. And this is an option for us to tackle.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:40:45]:
We decided this is the way to tackle.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:40:51]:
You've said Moss aims to be the most intelligent finance stack for Europe's SMBs. Paint the picture. What does that look like in five years? Does it include Treasury AI, embedded FPA, cross border FX?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:41:09]:
Yeah. So now, now I love speaking about the future, but it's also very hard to predict. Maybe starting first with the fundamental belief.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:41:20]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:41:20]:
And I think this is what shapes like a lot of thinking for us at Moss and also for me personally and my co founders. The first layer that we tackle is the workflow. It's creating a digital experience. Now, for some, this might already be groundbreaking.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:41:38]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:41:38]:
But if we are honest, it's only the baseline, it's only process efficiency.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:41:43]:
Right.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:41:43]:
You basically can do the job in a more orchestrated way and maybe a bit faster and a bit more automated. The true power comes from intelligence.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:41:53]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:41:53]:
So how can I digest that data and how can I use that data in a way that makes people work smarter?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:42:02]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:42:03]:
Not. Not just harder. And by comparison, here would be. For anyone who is working with CRM software and in sales, think about Salesforce. Yeah. The, the company, Salesforce, the product. It's good if you can create a customer journey and a buyer list and basically move away from a Google Doc, from Excel to having it in Salesforce. But the magic is when you get all of your KPIs, when you understand what the sales cycle is, what the big deals are, when the follow updates are, when it automates your ways of working, when it gives you the intelligence to say I'm on track or I'm not on track.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:42:42]:
And it's the same thing with Moz. We are building the foundational layer and we are moving very fast on that front. But once we have done this, we'll move and invest much more into the intelligence layer. Because we want our customers, we want the finance teams, the business owners, to just spend as little time as possible with admin and focus most of their time on the activities that change and drive their company.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:43:10]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:43:11]:
And we call it business partnering.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:43:12]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:43:13]:
So you work with the team to grow sales, to reduce costs, to improve margins or whatsoever. So having said that. Yeah, it's the foundational layer. This really great workflows end to end across accounting, across controlling. Very likely not just focused on spend, what we do now in five years from now, very likely also focus on the revenue side. But then it's the layer on top, it's kind of the cash flow forecasting, it's the budgeting, it's a lot of additional use cases, effective cost controlling, etc. Etc. That connect all of the dots in the dashboard and then help businesses improve, help businesses grow.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:43:57]:
Sounds pretty good. Sounds like you'll have some kind of AI agent best controlled via audio and you tell him make a casual forecast this and this and this changed and let me know tomorrow what are the implications.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:44:14]:
Yeah, yeah. So I love that. If I may, if I may say, I we're so excited about the AI. AI kind of AI segment, category, trend, whatever want to call it. And one fun fact up front, AI has been leveraged in finance since many, many years already. So OCR, extracting information from documents and categorizing it is basically a certain form of AI and it's already in most software since many, many years. What fundamentally changed with the introduction of the LLMs and with the power of the LLMs was to supercharge other parts and connect more dots and more context and more information. And yeah, so we for example right now are, have a very, very powerful AI automation platform.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:45:09]:
So let's say a customer submits an invoice. 19 out of 20 actions that have to be taken, such as, you know, the service date, the account category, the cost center, like everything finance needs to do for the transaction. 19 out of 20 the machine can do for you in an automated way and an accurate way. Yeah, and this is just think about this change. So just think about you have to do one step out of 20. Yeah, it's a very, very brutal improvement and it's just starting.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:45:43]:
Yeah.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:45:43]:
So on compliance checks, there's so many other areas where, where AI will supercharge the offering and it's not necessarily going to be kind of just an AI agent. I think it's almost like it's a misused terminology. It will be part of the software suite. The AI will enable a better workflow and better insights for customers through a specific user experience. It might be a prompt, it might be kind of just in the background, you don't even see it. It's just, it's just, it just executes the job or it might be a different ways, but it's kind of, it is going to be part of the software.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:46:25]:
Let's face it this is well, but I had in mind if it's from a psychological perspective, easier for person to interact with an AI agent that at least has some personality. I'm thinking about Jarvis here from Ironman or or Skippy. Sci Fi readers would know them, but that's a completely different topic. If anybody out there is researching on that or knowledgeable about it, hit me up Joe, celebrate IO and we can talk about and maybe even find an interview for you. Let's reflect a little bit for the closing in the Future version of ANTO 5 years older post series D looked back at this moment. What would he say to you right now?
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:47:16]:
Yeah, so I'm thinking about what the future me will say. Yeah, this is a very very good question. Yeah. So I hope it will say stay hungry, push, but don't stress out too much. Everything will be fine. I hope this is what they will say. Everything will be fine.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:47:41]:
Great. Awesome Ante. Thank you very much. Awesome interview. Hope to have you back soon and we'll now hop into the founders world and talk a little bit behind the scenes for our subscribers. If you'd like to join us, go on substack or YouTube, become a paying member and you'll have access to access to the Founders vote.
Ante Spittler | Co-Founder & CEO | Moss [00:48:06]:
Thanks y and all the listeners. Really really enjoyed.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:48:09]:
My pleasure. That's all folks. Find more news streams, events and interviews at www.startuprad.io Remember, sharing is caring.
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