Flow State for Startup Founders: The Complete Deep Work Playbook
- Jörn Menninger
- Oct 9
- 41 min read
🚀 Management Summary
How do startup founders actually get into flow state in a world of Slack pings, Zoom calls, and endless context switching?
This guide breaks down the Flow State Playbook for Startup Founders, inspired by our conversation with Steven Puri — Hollywood veteran turned startup founder. We explore how to design for deep work using body doubling, the coffee-shop effect, chronotype time blocking, and demo-first rituals.
📚 Table of Contents
The Flow State Imperative
The Coffee-Shop Effect: Ambient Accountability
Body Doubling for Founders
The 22-Minute Context Switching Tax
Chronotype Time Blocking
Demo-First Rituals & Outcome-Based Leadership
🧠 Unique Value Blocks
📡 AI-Search Supreme Layer
🧭 Internal & External Links
📆 Author Box & Closing
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🧭 The Flow State Imperative
Startup founders need deliberate environments to enter and sustain flow, not just discipline.
For founders, focus is the ultimate leverage. Flow states are where the highest-value work happens — complex problem solving, strategy, product breakthroughs. But as Steven Puri notes, founders often confuse availability with impact.
In today’s remote-first world, leaders must architect their calendars, rituals, and environments to trigger flow deliberately. This article dives into the 5 pillars of Puri’s flow methodology, designed to work for founders, teams, and operators alike.
☕ 1. The Coffee-Shop Effect: Ambient Accountability
Ambient accountability boosts focus through presence without interaction.
What Is the Coffee-Shop Effect?
The “coffee-shop effect” refers to the social facilitation phenomenon — people work better when others are silently working around them. Puri explains how Sukha recreated this virtually: founders join silent co-working rooms where simply being present increases output.
Why It Works for Founders
It replaces isolation with communal momentum
Encourages longer deep work blocks without distraction
Simulates the hum of productive environments — no meetings required
👥 2. Body Doubling for Founders
Body doubling uses real-time presence to improve focus, especially for remote founders.
Tactical Deep Dive
Originally popular in ADHD communities, body doubling means working alongside someone (in person or via webcam) to create accountability. For founders, this can be transformative: you start a deep work session with others watching, so you’re less likely to context switch or procrastinate.
Puri emphasizes that this isn’t about chatting — it’s about shared silence and energy. Sukha’s platform allows founders to create or join silent “focus rooms,” turning accountability into a productivity multiplier.
Pro Tip: Start with 25-minute silent sessions with cameras on. End with a 1-minute share of what you shipped. This simple ritual creates psychological commitment.
⏱ 3. The 22-Minute Context Switching Tax
It takes 15–23 minutes to recover flow after a single interruption.
Why It Matters
Founders often pride themselves on “multitasking,” but neuroscience shows this is just rapid task switching — and every switch carries a heavy cognitive toll. Puri cites research showing it takes ~22 minutes to re-enter flow after an interruption.
How to Counter It
Timer-based sprints: commit to uninterrupted blocks (e.g. 45 minutes)
Mute notifications: Slack, email, calendars — everything off
Structured breaks: schedule interruption zones after deep work
🌅 4. Chronotype Time Blocking
Align deep work with your brain’s natural peaks for maximum output.
What It Is
Chronotypes describe whether you’re a morning maker or night strategist. Instead of forcing productivity at arbitrary times, Puri recommends founders schedule their hardest work when their brain is at its best.
Morning people: do strategy, writing, and creative work early.
Night owls: block late evenings for design, vision, or code.
Protect these blocks like meetings with your future self.
Tactical Application
Run a 2-week chronotype log to find peak focus hours
Batch similar tasks into blocks (e.g., all writing in one morning slot)
Communicate your “deep work blocks” to your team
🧪 5. Demo-First Rituals & Outcome-Based Leadership
Demo-first standups and outcome-based leadership shift teams from presence to impact.
Demo-First Rituals
Borrowing from Pixar’s story rooms, Steven implemented “demo-first” standups: every meeting starts with a demo, not a status update. This drives:
Tangible progress over talk
Teamwide clarity on what’s shipping
Reduced ego (best idea wins)
Outcome-Based Leadership
Instead of measuring time, measure effect. This cultural shift:
Rewards creative problem solving
Reduces performative busyness
Enables remote autonomy with high trust
✅ Key Takeaways
Flow isn’t accidental — it’s architected
Body doubling is a founder-friendly productivity hack
Context switching silently kills deep work — timers fix it
Chronotype-based scheduling beats generic calendars
Demo-first rituals foster impact over presence
💬 Founder Quote Box
“We don’t rely on willpower — we design for flow.”— Steven Puri, Co-founder & CEO, Sukha
Commentary: This sums up the modern founder mindset. Rituals and environments outperform brute discipline.
🌍 Market Lens
Why now?
Remote work has fragmented attention.
AI tools have increased cognitive load, not reduced it.
Founders are under pressure to ship more with fewer resources.
Flow state design is becoming a strategic advantage, not a luxury.
🛠 Pro Tip
📝 Create a “Flow Ritual Checklist”:
Join a body doubling room
Start a 45-min timer
Play flow music
Close Slack & email
Announce your task in chat for accountability
Repeat daily → compounding focus gains.
📊 Stat Spotlight
💡 15–23 minutes: Average time to recover flow after interruption.Source: Gloria Mark, UC Irvine — The Cost of Interrupted Work.
🧵 Further Reading
External Links
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📝 About the Author
Jörn “Joe” Menninger is the founder and host of Startuprad.io — one of Europe’s top startup podcasts. Joe's work is featured in Forbes, Tech.eu, and more. He brings 15+ years of expertise in consulting, strategy, and startup scouting.
✅ FAQs
1. What is “flow state” for startup founders?
It’s when your brain is fully immersed, distractions fade, and productivity peaks. For founders, flow is critical for strategy, creative problem solving, and product breakthroughs.
2. How can startup founders get into flow state?
Steven Puri recommends joining silent focus rooms, scheduling deep work at peak chronotype times, and starting sessions with music + timers to bypass resistance.
3. What is the coffee-shop effect in productivity?
It recreates the subtle accountability of being around others working silently. Virtual coworking platforms like Sukha harness this effect for remote founders.
4. What is body doubling and why does it work for founders?
By announcing your task and working silently alongside others, you tap into external accountability that keeps you on track.
5. How long does it take to recover focus after an interruption?
This “context switching tax” silently kills productivity. Timer-based sprints and muted notifications help minimize recovery time.
6. What is chronotype time blocking?
Morning people schedule strategic work early; night owls block evenings. Tracking your rhythm for two weeks reveals your ideal focus windows.
7. How can founders stop context switching?
Puri’s method involves daily flow rituals with timers and structured breaks to preserve momentum and avoid multitasking traps.
8. What are demo-first standups?
Inspired by Pixar story rooms, this ritual prioritizes tangible output, reduces ego, and accelerates shipping across teams.
9. How can startup teams measure output over presence?
This leadership model rewards creativity, autonomy, and results, supporting hybrid and remote teams more effectively.
10. What is Sukha and how does it help with flow?
It enables founders to join or host silent focus rooms, integrate timers, and design deep work rituals that mimic the energy of coffee shops virtually.
11. Why is flow state especially important for startup founders?
Unlike routine tasks, founder work involves solving complex problems under uncertainty. Flow maximizes clarity, creativity, and execution speed.
12. How can founders use voice assistants to optimize flow?
Voice assistants can act as “ritual starters,” helping founders enter deep work mode without fiddling with apps.
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The Host & Guest
The host in this interview is Jörn “Joe” Menninger, startup scout, founder, and host of Startuprad.io. And guest is Maximilian Wilk, Co Founder & CEO of AQON PURE
📅 Automated Transcript
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:00]:
Foreign.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:00:09]:
Your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German startup scene with news interviews and live events.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:20]:
If you're a founder or engineer fighting distractions, here's the challenge most productivity hacks create Flow Stephen Puri, the VFX producer behind Oscar winning Independence Day and former Fox Greenworks executive Turd Shuka founder, has shipped under Hollywood level pressure. Today we'll unpack his Flow State playbook from the coffee shop effect to remote team rituals so he can do deep work and be2 time your meaningful output today on startup rated IO Stephen Puri. He helped deliver the visual magic on Independence Day. Braveheart, True Lies, Godzilla Dentur then moved upstairs as a studio executive at Fox and DreamWorks. Along the way he co founded Centropolis FX with his friend Roland Emerysch, later selling the company and produced in the Transformers universe with Transformers Prime. He's a founder again building Flow State platform for remote workers, developers and creators. We'll explore what Hollywood war rooms taught him about focus and what his startup failures told him about resilience and how to design teams for deep work in an AI driven distraction heavy world. That is a nutshell.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:01:51]:
That's a big sentence.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:01:54]:
Yes, but. But you know, in Germany we love big sentences and compound bounds. Yeah. Let's talk a little about origins. You told me both of your parents were engineers. You started in CG and Metroland Emirates through vfx. What was the first this is bigger than me moment on Independence Day?
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:02:19]:
Oh, I think there were a lot of this is bigger than me moments. I was very fortunate to meet Roland and Dean, his co producer and co writer, after I had worked on about 13 movies. How that happened is you mentioned my parents were both engineers at IBM. So when your mother is a great ice skater, you probably learned to ice skate when you were little. So. So I learned how to code. I was in Los Angeles at the University of Southern California when computers became powerful enough to handle film. So I worked on the digital effects for True Lies with Jim Cameron seven with David Fincher.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:03:00]:
I did Braveheart and Mortal Blood with Mel Gibson, did a bunch of movies and met Roland and Dean after they'd done Stargate. And I remember coming over to chat with them and they were building in one of the hangars at Howard Hughes old aircraft factory which was been abandoned, but it was a very cheap place to have huge stages. Right. They had under construction the alien fighter craft that Jeff Goldblum would later be inside and install the virus to help save the world. And it was pretty great having a conversation with them about doing the movie Together when you're standing next to this massive starship being created, that was one of many moments that was hard movie to do, but a great one to do.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:03:50]:
Every day. What did leadership under pressure look like across Braveheart? True Life's Godzilla, and which habit from those sets still lives in your founder routine?
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:04:03]:
Okay, so in many ways, I view leadership as a way to create an environment for a team to do great things. I don't view leadership as, oh, I'm here to be the great one. I think, for example, in the entertainment world, Bob Iger is a great example of a leader where he has amazing people running the divisions he's navigated, very complex acquisitions, but he doesn't make it about him. In contrast to someone like Elon Musk, who's very full of himself. So going back to working with people who are very talented, Mel, Jim, Cameron Fincher, Spielberg, I work with Woody Allen, Jim Jarmusch. The thing that was important was we have a team here and if everyone has something inside them that is great to express, how do you create the conditions where they're going to be great, they're going to get that out. And that's a very strong theme of my life. I've worked with incredibly productive, creative, talented people.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:05:08]:
And it's about, if we all have something great inside, how do you make sure you don't die with it still inside you? That's how I view leadership.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:05:21]:
We had quite an extensive conversation before that, and you said the studio sequel Treadmill felt at one point meaningless to you, pushing you towards a startup. What snapped and why?
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:05:33]:
So what you're referencing is when I had sold that company with Roland and Dean, and I was in my late twenties, and as one thinks in their late twenties that they're smarter than they are, they're more successful, they're better looking than they are. Right. So I had that moment of like, oh, wow, I sold a company and I had some money in my pocket. My girlfriend was a flight attendant for Air France, and we traveled for a year or two and just sort of experienced the world. And I thought, when we come back, I want to make movies. I don't want to make a portion of someone else's movie. So I worked my way up the ladder to be, as you said, an executive vice president for Kurtzman Mercy at DreamWorks, Vice President at Fox doing Die Hard, Wolverine and things like that. And I wanted to be like a studio chairman.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:06:22]:
So when I got to Fox, what was interesting is I came to understand for the first time that my job, which Was from the outside, rather prestigious. I'm responsible for delivering the next Die Hard movie, the next Wolverine movie, a bunch of movies on the slate. It's really just a chair. The studio will live beyond my tenure there. It was around before I was there. I'm the guy in the chair for these couple of years, and someone will come after me. And the studio is going to make these movies regardless of who is there, because people will just see a movie because it says Die Hard on the poster. And my boss, who was the chairman of Fox Films Entertainment, who was a smart guy, if not a nice guy, a smart guy, he was very pragmatic.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:07:12]:
He said, you know, it doesn't actually matter how good this movie is, how good the script is. We can financially model it based upon the previous four movies. So as long as we make it cheaply, we know we won't lose money. And, Yorin, that is not an extremely inspiring way to lead a team. It's like, hey, would you go kill yourself to make this thing? By the way, we know the script sucks, but as long as it gets shot, when Bruce has some time to shoot the movie, we'll release it and it'll be fine. And that for me, was the breaking point where I was like, am I going to wake up, be 40, 50 years old doing die hard nine in the retirement home? Because people will go see it even if there's no idea. I couldn't see spending more time there. I think there's a real value misalignment at Fox.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:07:59]:
If you do Die Hard 9, it has to play in a retirement home.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:08:05]:
Pretty much, yeah. And obviously now Bruce is not making his movies anymore, and I hope he and his family are well. But at the time, he was still quite vibrant. And the movie got made because he had a window of time in his schedule. It was not made because this is the most amazing idea. The best script ever, the best director ever. It was more, just get something ready and shoot in April and we'll find a country in Eastern Europe where we can shoot it cheaply. Not inspiring.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:08:37]:
Good to have a. It pays well and it's a fun job to have, but. But someday you're like, I'm going to wake up sitting around talking about how I did these bad movies. Not a great way to spend your life.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:08:51]:
For everybody who's interested, we do have a founder's world. And then we also talk about his talker's moment and how Stephen rebuilt his identity as a founder. The full story, of course, inside our Founders vault. I was wondering because you've been in corporate. I have been two. Even though completely different capacities and industries. What specific anti patterns did you learn there that now shape Shuka product bets.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:09:25]:
Okay. An anti pattern. And this might fall into category of values also, which is, I think you, all of us right now are looking at how do we measure work. And in the tug of war between working at home, working remotely, working hybrid, working in office, there's a lot of fear. Right? I think the fundamental thing that we should focus on is not, well, where did you do this work? Were you here under the fluorescent lights with me where I could watch you? Were you at home? Were you at a beach or at a park? I don't know where you are, not what time of day you did it. Like, if you're not here at 2am Joran, you're not working hard, you're not part of the team. If you're not sleeping under your desk, you're not doing meaningful work. I don't think those are important.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:10:19]:
I think work should be measured by the effect of what you do, not where or when you do it. So if you walk in the staff meeting tomorrow and you say, guys, actually yesterday I had some time to think. This is what I was considering. And everyone in the meeting looks over and goes, oh, my God, we should do that now. That changes the trajectory of our company. And then you say, well, you know what? I actually just thought of that. Walking my dog. Who cares? I would much rather you said I was walking my dog and I had this revolutionary idea than I was here all day.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:10:57]:
I was here 14 hours yesterday. And I have some mediocre things to share.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:01]:
You know, Stephen, between you and me and something like 50 to 100,000 people listening to this interview, can I tell you a secret?
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:11:09]:
Yes.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:09]:
I have the best ideas when smoking a cigar.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:11:13]:
Okay. I'm glad it's our little secret. No one tell anyone what you just heard.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:21]:
Yeah. Awesome.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:11:24]:
Why do you think that is? Hold on, I want to ask you a question. Why do you think that is?
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:28]:
That's pretty simple. That's like a moment I do get completely for myself. I sit there on our covered porch, on the balcony where there's another balcony on top. But I have awesome neighbors. They don't mind me going out late at night smoking cigarette because they're already in bed. Thank you, neighbors. I look out like it is peaceful world. There's.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:51]:
There's a lot of green. I see some squirrels running around and all that stuff. And I. I can really wind down my brain. I can really relax. And it takes some time to smoke, like a really good cigarette. So you relax it for quite some time.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:12:08]:
May I tell you a story? Sure.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:12:11]:
That's why you're here.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:12:12]:
So when I was transitioning from being a student at USC to the film world, which was not my original intention, I sort of fell into it. I had gotten a job working at a company that did trailers for movies, largely for Warner Brothers and for Buena Vista, which is Disney. So my job, when I was 20 years old at this company was we would have contracts with the studios where they would send us rough cuts of movies. Hey, next spring we have this romantic comedy with Steven and Joran in it. Find a way to promote it. So I would assign those incoming movies to writer producers. Hey, go take this home. Watch it.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:12:54]:
They want it to feel fun or they want it to feel scary. They want to feel right. So the company is owned by two guys who are very well established in this field in Hollywood. They were very respected as great guys to promote movies. So one of them comes in my office one day, and he's 40 years old, by the way, smoke cigars. So he comes to my office, and he's the only person in my life who calls me Stevie. So he goes, stevie, do you know Bart? And I was like, there's the guy in the vault that delivers tapes. Yeah, I've met him.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:13:27]:
Seems nice. Why? He's like, you ever give Bart a trailer to ride? I was like, are we talking about the guy who delivers coffee? The same. Bart, the guy. Where are you going with this? He's like, stevie, I have an instinct about him. Jeff, you own the place. Let me give him something to work on, Right? So I found, like, a Warner Brothers B title that had a month deadline. So if after a week, he's like, I don't want to do this. I could give it to a pro.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:13:56]:
Right? Jeff comes to my office two days later. Stevie, how's Bart doing? Like, Jeff, I gave him this thing two days ago. I'm not going to bug him. I'll check with him on Monday. Okay. Okay, that's great. What else did you give him? Jeff, he's never written a trailer in his life. I gave him one movie, and Jeff said something that I've seen proven true for 20 years in both film and tech.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:14:20]:
Jeff said to me, stevie, let me explain to you how creativity works. It's always about the other thing. He said, if you give Bart one movie to work on, he's going to stare at that with little beads of sweat coming down his temples and he's going to write the most obvious B version of a trailer. He's like the part of your mind that does the huh, what do chocolate and peanut butter taste like together? He's like, that's not the part of your mind that you think you're thinking with. So you have to give him something else to think about. Not only have I seen him proven right so many times, but there is a book about the neuroscience of this called the Net and the butterfly by Olivia Fox Caban and Judah Pollock. And it talks about the executive mode and the default mode networks in the brain and talks to a lot of inventors, talks to a lot of creative types and say, how do you do this? And what's interesting is the default mode network, which actually exists first when we were small, is the one that just explores the world. It looks at a cell phone and thinks, I wonder what that tastes like.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:15:34]:
Well, the executive mode network is more like the adult in the room. I have to finish the slide deck for tomorrow's presentation. Oh, the investor thing is coming up. I need to do my homework tonight. So it's only when the executive mode network is busy doing something the default mode network can play and come up with those ideas. You go, oh, actually that's interesting. So that is why people have ideas when they are sitting out, looking, smoking a cigar, walking their dog, driving, doing the dishes, showering. So many people come to me like, I have my best ideas in the shower.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:16:07]:
My best ideas like washing dishes. And that is why.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:16:13]:
I see. And actually I also learned that when I became an entrepreneur, I sent the adult in my brain a part time vacation. Okay, let's talk about Transformers prime and later studio roles. Put you in a massive cross functional team. What's a communication ritual from that world every startup should steal today.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:16:43]:
Oh, okay. I would say probably the most valuable thing that you see on show because Transformers prime is a TV series that I helped set up. I helped staff and create the organization for that. So that is a 3D animated show based on the Transformers universe and all that. So a very similar thing does exist in the standup world, which is you do have a morning standup and that is something that in the animation world you will have a practice that Pixar is famous for about, you know, the Pixar movies, right from Toy Story to today, like they've done an amazing job. They have a very collaborative process of saying, hey, let's watch things together. Let's talk about the struggles we're having. I don't know why the third act is not working here.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:17:33]:
It's a similar thing that I see in the best startup, you know, best startups that have a standup that's not just a. This is what I did yesterday. This is what I'm doing today. This is where I'm blocked. You know, it's like that becomes such a rote sort of a thing that's not actually that inspiring as to say, hey, you know what? I want to show something. I built this feature. What do you think? And take 10 seconds. Take 20 seconds.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:17:58]:
Go. Now, when you do this in our app, this works this way. And it's an interesting way to engage the team, to get collaborative ideas, to shoot down bad ideas quickly. And you, as a leader, have to create an environment where best idea wins, where there is no ego. And I'll tell you another story. When I was at DreamWorks and I had worked hard, and I got to the point where I was a senior executive there with Alex and Bob, I remember the very first meeting I had in Steven Spielberg's conference room, which, yes, I'd worked hard to get there and had done many projects. But I'm just going to tell you straight up, the first time I was sitting there and Steven's, it's all Southwestern Adobe style. And I looked around, I was like, oh, my God.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:18:44]:
My life has gotten to the point where I'm having a story meeting with Steven Spielberg in his private conference room. This is amazing. And the chairman of DreamWorks, Stacy Snyder is there, and the president of DreamWorks, myself, two writers, writing producers. And I saw something that I was like, wow. And I'm going to change the details, Jorn, just to be respectful of Stephen in the process. Okay, I'm going to change the details a bit, but we're working on a project that's like an Alien movie. And Steven has done some big alien movie. He spent a lot of time thinking about aliens, right? So he said something where it's like, oh, you know what? The alien should come through the wall, and then we're going to discover its weakness.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:19:26]:
Is this right? And everyone, of course, writes that down. Steven Spielberg said, the alien comes to the wall. Weaknesses, right? And. And then someone who I'm going to say is like, the coffee boy was coming through the room and said, actually, I feel like we just saw that last summer in this other movie. And what if it were actually this thing that the alien was weak, it was his weakness. And I thought to myself, that Coffee Boy will never be seen alive again. He just contradicted Steven Spielberg. This would be the end of Jerry.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:20:01]:
He'll be in a dumpster out back. And what was amazing is, without a missed beat, Steven said, oh, yeah, that's good, we should do that. And there was no feeling of, oh, my God, someone contradicted Steven Spielberg. It was rather Steven saying, I want this to be great more than I want it to be mine. And I'll tell you, I saw this with some of the best designers, some of the best writers, directors. They don't have a possessive relationship with ideas. It's not like you're in, this is my idea. I must defend it to the death.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:20:41]:
We'll do it this way. It is rather, I will defend greatness to the death. And then you lose the ego because you want the products to be great. Whether it is an app, whether it is a movie, a TV series. That process, if you can create that in your company, it comes from the top. Because once they see the leader is fine with their ideas being improved, then everyone goes, oh, well, it's okay. It's not an ego thing.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:21:09]:
That sounds pretty good. Can I tell you another secret?
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:21:12]:
Oh, boy. Is this about cigars?
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:21:13]:
It has done a lot of very cool stuff. But when you first said Steven Spielberg, do you know what first thing came to my mind? The animated series. He did Pinky and the Brain. Pinky and the Brain.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:21:30]:
Okay, you're going to laugh. That's funny. That was on your mind. You know what was on my mind today when we were going to talk, when I was thinking, oh, I wanted to talk to Jordan today, was I think you did a recent episode where you were interviewing someone who was working in the finance. I think she was in private equity or something, and she made selling finance. And you said, you know, you don't need five apps to tell you you're broke. Remember this? Yes, I remember listening to that in the car. I was going to the gym and I laughed out lo.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:22:02]:
You know what? You're absolutely right.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:22:08]:
Really cool. Let's talk a little bit about Shuka, your current company, your current startup. That's why you are here. As an entrepreneur, you aim for the coffee shop effect. I assume it's not being over caffeinated. What does the science and your user data say about ambient accountability versus solo focus playlists?
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:22:40]:
Let me answer that, but then I'm going to expand it a little bit, if that's okay with you. Okay, so for those listening at home or playing in the car, what Joran is alluding to is there is an effect that's known colloquially as the coffee shop effect. In research circles, it's often called social facilitation theory, the Hawthorne effect, other things. And it's based on this idea, which is there is a productivity boost, a measurable boost if you can see someone else working and, you know, you can be seen working. And whether that is the negative side of that is, well, it's surveillance. It's like, oh, everyone can see me. I have to work. Or whether it is, hey, we're doing this together.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:23:28]:
It's inspiring. You can debate that, but there is a productivity boost you get from that. Now, I think what Joran's getting at, because he wants to laugh a little bit at me, is when I was a film executive, I had to read a lot of scripts, a lot of books. You were continually getting this flow of things coming at you from people who want you to buy it, Right. Will your studio please buy my idea, my pitch, my treatment, my. My video game rights, you know, whatever. And that means you read a lot. And I'm not a great writer, but there is a coffee shop, a Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf that is across Sunset Boulevard from the Directors Guild of America.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:24:11]:
And it is famously known as this writer's coffee shop. And when you walk in There, all the MacBooks are out with people writing on their laptops. And it's not incredibly social. It is not like people are just running around talking to each other all the time. But there's an energy in that room that's really interesting because in one corner, you have that weird old guy writing who's written, like, three studio movies this year. His quote is a million dollars a script. But he still comes here in his 50s or 60s, because it's his habit. He loves the energy of this room.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:24:44]:
Maybe he's been there for 20 years, whereas there are other people who just got off the bus from Iowa, you know, or from Wichita Falls, and they are writing their first TV pilot. So what's interesting about that coffee shop effect, and then I'm going to move on to a broader point, is I would go there to read. Even though I was not a writer, I would go there to read because it was inspiring to me. On weekends when I had, like, six hours, eight hours of reading to do, to be there among so many people who are trying to do something with their lives, all of them are trying to write something great. And that is something that, you know, with Sukha, that we wanted to recreate where you have the ability, if you want to participate in a group chat, to you Know, turn your camera on, see other people. It's a very simple idea of that African proverb, we go together, we go further. You know, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:25:42]:
Now let me expand that a little bit, which is the why of what I do. And actually the most important reason that I'm sharing a lot this year is what I've learned about flow states. Because we began talking today. And for those of you listening, I appreciate your being here because this is really the closest thing to my heart. I believe that all of us have something great inside. And the question that you're going to answer in this lifetime is, will you get it out or not? And there are some very strong forces in this world to make sure you do not the people who make distractions, the trillion dollar companies that hire some of the best behavioral psychologists, some of the best designers from the best engineers, their business models to steal your life. Because they don't want you to create that startup. They don't want you to come with that new idea.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:26:35]:
They don't want you to even write that book. They want to have your life so they can sell it. So if you are out there listening and you have that thing inside you like, I refuse to die with this idea still inside me, then that tug of war for your life you really have to look at. Because on one side you have those trillion dollar ideas paying the biggest paychecks to the smartest people tugging, and on the other side of that rope, it's you alone. So you need to have people around you and tools that help you to actually become who you could be. Because you don't want to end up that 80 year old guy or girl sitting on the sofa scrolling and double tapping and telling people how you could have created that company, you had that idea for the app, you could have written that book, because that's miserable. And by the way, no one wants to be around that person. They want to be around someone who tried.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:27:32]:
You may fail what you are contemplating doing. You come here to listen to this podcast because you have something you believe you can do. You may not succeed, but if you try and fail, that is noble and people can respect that. But giving your life away, there's no nobility in that. So that is why I talk a lot about flow states and how to block distractions and how to get out the great thing inside you. And that's why I was really excited to come on this podcast today. Because I think the people listening here, they want to do Something with their lives, and I love that. Back to you, Jorn.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:28:18]:
I actually realized that I also used this effect of being seen, because with a friend of mine, I'm doing like one hour a week. We call it the hour of the Skunk, where we just go online on a meeting, webcams on. We both work on the things you really don't want to do, like tax filings, all the administrative trivia. You just have to. Yeah, I love that in German. Die stunde Distincties.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:28:51]:
And so have you. I've not heard an episode where you talked about body doubling. Is that something we should talk about now?
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:28:59]:
No, no, no, actually. Actually, I do it all myself. Like the owl of the skunk. It's all me.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:29:05]:
Oh, it's just you. I thought you were on webcams together with your friend.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:29:08]:
Yeah, exactly. So. So I'm there, he's there, and we both work on different things, but we force each other to do the stuff we don't want to do. You know, like the book. Eat that frog. Exactly. That's the idea behind that.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:29:22]:
Eat the frog. There you go.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:29:24]:
Yeah, exactly.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:29:25]:
Yeah. So the technique that Jorn is referencing is commonly known, and it's very popular with neurodivergence, popular in ADHD circles, of turning on your webcam, working with one or more people. And it's not that you talk, it's not that you interact, but it's just a way of having a sense of presence. There's someone else there, as I do the thing that may be super annoying to do or I've been procrastinating on, and you eat the frog. You do the thing that's hard. You, I guess, spend an hour with the skunk.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:29:57]:
Exactly. Sometimes I feel like that. I think there's a lot of interesting stuff in here. But let us move to next question. You shared that 22 minutes can be lost, regaining focus after interruptions. How does Shukra reduce this, like, context switch tax in practice?
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:30:21]:
Oh, good question. Okay, so, as you know, I love stories. Let me tell you a story about how I discovered this. And then I'm going to go into more of the neuroscience of it and how it can be applied. Right. So I live in Austin, Texas. You know where this is very well, because you've lived in Texas. I was flying to San Francisco, where the next day I was going to meet with my team.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:30:42]:
And on the flight I thought, I'm going to mock up. I'm going to go into Figma, mock up this idea for a feature well, enough that I can Demonstrate it tomorrow, and then actual designer can pick it up and finish it. I got on the flight, and there's an Alaska nonstop from Austin to San Francisco. We took off. They announced the WI fi was out, and we landed about 15 minutes later. And I thought, the engine has fallen off. Something bad has happened. We lost hydraulic systems, and we're in Dallas.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:31:13]:
We didn't go anywhere. I looked down at the little clock on my MacBook. Over 2 hours and 40 minutes had gone by. I had no concept. Time had moved. We were in San Francisco, and my designs were done. And I was actually quite proud of them. And I thought to myself, I couldn't tell you if the drink cart came by.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:31:38]:
I couldn't tell you the name of the guy in the seat next to me. I had no concept of any of these distracting things around me, but I had this great feeling of being in control of my life. That night. I thought to myself, I'm going to get off the plane, grab a sandwich in the hotel lobby, go up to my hotel room, and try and finish the designs. In reality, I called a friend of mine and said, hey, I have a free night in San Francisco. Do you want to have dinner? And that felt amazing. To not be behind, but to start, be ahead. And at the time, I did not know the term flow state.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:32:13]:
Now, I'm sure there are many people listening who are flow masters, and they know all about flow states. But for those who don't, or maybe have heard it in passing, let me just do 30 seconds on what a flow state is, that we're all on equal footing. Okay? There was a Hungarian American psychologist, Mihai Csik Nai, and he had a strong thesis. His thesis was man high performers in these different disciplines, inventors and athletes and artists, they get into these concentrated states where they do the things that make them famous, the things that change the world. And they describe these states in very similar ways. What is that state? How does it work? So, like Prometheus from the mythology, he wanted to go up to Mount Olympus, steal some fire, and bring it down to the rest of us. So when he did his research, at the end of it, he wrote a book, and the book is called Flow, and that is the seminal work on this. It is from whence we get the term flow states.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:33:16]:
And he said this was the most beautiful metaphor I could use for what I found, which is, we are all on the river, paddling to move ourselves forward. But if you align your boat with the current, you go faster and you go further, because it magnifies your efforts. And that's what these people do. Now, in the intervening decades, many smart people have expanded on his research and said, oh, this is the thing. There is a way in which you could be more in control of your day, more in control of your mind and your energy to do things. Super helpful. If you are an entrepreneur, a solopreneur, if you are working on things on the side, if you have knowledge, work to do, like you may be a developer, you may be a designer, you may be an author, and this is what I am passionate about. Suka, which you referenced and I appreciate you bringing that up.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:34:11]:
Suka is ultimately a flow state app. I don't call it that all the time because not everyone knows what a flow state is. We call it a Focus app. But what it is is we looked at the research and Mihaly did an amazing job saying, here's how you know you're in a flow state and here are the techniques that these high performers use to get into it. And we just said, what if there was a simple website with a play button right in the middle that did most of this for you? And I can go into what some of those things are because people can do this. They don't need my app or anyone's app. If you're interested in having control of your life, creating your startup better, creating whatever it is you're working on for your team better. Mihaly said flow states seem to be characterized by loss of track of time, which I experienced.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:35:00]:
Maybe you weren't. Have you've experienced a flow state, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you lose track of time, distractions are blocked, you're very focused on the task at hand. You do it at a very high level. Your return of energy from the task is much higher than things that drain you because you can look at it and say, oh, I've done something of meaning. And when he talked about what are the things that help you get into a flow state and stay there, he said, number one, everyone that he spoke to could get into flow state on a task that he thought was meaningful.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:35:37]:
No one gets into a flow state like paying their bills or returning stupid emails or filing taxes, right? You don't get a flow state. When there was a famous basketball player in this country, Michael Jordan, who had this quote where he said, when I'm in the zone, it's only me and the ball. And what he was saying, which zone is another word for this flow state. He's saying, I can reduce my world down to what is important and all that's important is I control this ball to go where it needs to go. The stands are not important. The scoreboard's not important. The defenders are actually not important. All that's important is I move this ball where it needs to go.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:36:17]:
And this is a guy who did stuff that 30 years later is still in the highlight reels for the best basketball in the world. And Picasso wrote about that too. He has a great quote about, I was up all night and I forgot to pee. No bio breaks and I didn't drink water. But hey, look, I made some progress on Guernica. So Mihaly said, what you're doing has to be meaningful. You have to be challenged. You have to have skills that apply.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:36:48]:
It's not Michael Jordan painting and it's not Picasso playing basketball. You have to have some feedback. You have to know you're not pouring energy into a black box with no idea if it's working. Picasso has to be able to stand back and say, this huge canvas that I'm creating. Am I starting to realize this vision I have in my head of what is the horror of war or Michael Jordan looking at the scoreboard and saying, okay, I'm going to win this game. This is what I wanted. So as this applies to Suka, what I built is I just said, without downloading an app, without doing a lot of things, how can we take what Mihaly wrote and make that available? Just a simple play button in the center of the screen. So music helps people get into flow and stay in flow.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:37:36]:
You brought up Jorn how a lot of research is 15 to 23 minutes to get into a flow state. You don't just sit down, say, I'm in flow, and you're deeply in flow. It takes a few minutes, like music playing, focusing. If you get interrupted, it's another 15 to 23 minutes to get back to that state. Right. So there are a number of components. We can talk about them and I'm happy to do so, but I've been talking for a long time now. I want to give it back to you.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:38:04]:
But that is really what I think is the secret sauce of our episode is how can you harness a flow state to do the things that propel your life and your team's life forward?
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:38:17]:
Two add ons to that. What really helps me is at one point listening to a lot of those background music on a commonly used video app that is like working jazz, relaxing jazz, something like this. I have almost. I'm almost constantly wearing headphones for that simple reason. Because I have like two very loud boys just behind this wall. And so I really need to do that. And a second piece that I found really helps me focus is interaction. And actually I also do realize that that this now maybe for a month or two, works for me with AI, with large language models, because I assign them roles.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:39:05]:
I assign them not, not really personalities. Like they don't have like funny voices or something, but they do have a purpose. And then you can work with them like in a, in an, in an idealized team. Because I found some research. If you not only set up, for example, let's say ChatGPT is the most used one. If you not only set up ChatGPT and give it a prompt, but if you really set up a personality, something that helps you towards your goal and then have a group of different people who have different angles, those virtual people, then you can get a much, much better result. And that's what I'm doing. And that also newly helps me get into flow.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:39:50]:
That is so interesting. Number one, my hat is off to you that you are that thoughtful about your flow practice. That's awesome. And that is interesting to me what you said about having that interaction that specifically keeps, you know, gets you there and keeps you there, helps you doing your best work. It's actually something I'm going to talk about with my partner later today because we've been working on our, you know, essentially GPT, your, your assistant in Suga and I would love to think more about that. That's a great idea. Okay, what should we talk about next?
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:40:28]:
Well, when we're done with the interview, I can show you some insights. You talked about Michael Jordan and Picasso. I'm very sure they are not the reference customer. And if they. In case of Michael Jordan, if he's using flow, he's not stating it outright, but what's your biggest validated use case so far? Like developers, designers, writers, solos, any surprising activation metrics that predict.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:40:58]:
Okay, I'm going to tell you a couple things that I found interesting because in running, you know, this for years now and talking to a lot of members, I know that our biggest cohorts are knowledge workers, right? Which are often developers, designers, writers, you know, like people who have multiple hours a day of sitting on a laptop and doing something and if the desire is to do it better, to do it faster, that is where flow states are very helpful because you stay in the thing. You don't context switch going between things. You don't try and multitask, which is not really a thing it's just monotasking with context switching. And there are a couple practices that I have seen validated by a number of people. This is not just theory number one is time blocking and time blocking as it relates to your chronotype. So chronotype, for those who don't know, is the concept that there are times of day when you're more adept at doing certain kinds of things. And I'll give you a film example because it's a fun way of illustrating this and memorable, which is Ron Bass was a huge screenwriter in Hollywood, wrote My Best Friend's Wedding and Rain man and all these, like, movie star movies, Right. He famously would not talk to his family in the morning.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:42:20]:
He's like, I'm not the dad who's going to say, who wants pancakes? You know, did you do your homework? Who needs a ride to school? He's like, I can't talk to you because when I talk to you, I lose the ability to hear my character's voices. And that's when I get paid a million, $2 million a script to do. So what he would do is he knew his chronotype and he said, I'll get up at 4 or 5 in the morning. So I have four hours to write and I'm going to get up, not say hello to his wife, go to his office and write. Now, he knew that his chronotype was such. He was very good with collaborative work. In the afternoon, after lunch is when he was good, meeting with other writers, meeting with producers and studio executives and talking about story, talking about. About things like that.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:43:04]:
So that was the first brush I had with someone who was very aware of their chronotype and harnessed that. Why do I bring this up? Because you can figure out your chronotype very easily. You don't need an app. You don't need to pay anyone. If you have a pencil and a piece of paper and you can use a computer if you want, but I'm just saying, it is this rudimentary, right? Create a simple list for each day, morning and afternoon, and just roughly say what you did and do it for five days. Oh, Monday morning from 8 to 11, I worked on blog posts and put down how you felt. Tuesday afternoon, I was working on coding from two to five. How'd you feel when you look at that after five days or do it for two weeks, you will start to see your patterns.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:43:51]:
Man. When I write creative stuff in the morning, I have a clarity. Then in the afternoon, I try and do it and I always feel blocked. Or I feel like it's stupid. I have to rewrite it. Oh, when I write my code late at night, because I think all code should be written in the middle of the night, I get a lot done, but I end up refactoring it the next day. I should pay attention to that. And then you start to develop a sense of when you should be doing certain things.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:44:17]:
So if you are a solopreneur, if you're doing a side hustle or you're working from home, you may want to have a meeting with yourself that you put in your calendar. When you say, Hey, 2 to 4pm Is my sweet spot for this, or 8 to 10 in the morning is my sweet spot for this. Block it in your calendar so no one schedules team meetings with you. Zooms. If they slack, you know, they know you're busy. And use that time for that thing because you'd be amazed if you know you're good from like 7 to 9am at this thing. You can get in that time done what other people do in seven to 11. And you have to respect that.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:44:56]:
You have to treat the time as sacred. Was her little jingle.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:45:00]:
That's just my smartwatch. I have two pieces to add to that. One of them is actually when you talked about seeing or hearing the characters talking, what came to mind was when I was in London, I was in the house of Charles Dickens, and he actually had a mirror in front, a big mirror in his writing room. And he got in front of it and acted like his characters. And then at one point, he knew how this would play out. And then he got back to writing.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:45:28]:
And that's incredibly cool.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:45:29]:
Second piece is. I already knew for quite decades that I'm a night person. I'm a night owl. I do my best work between, let's say, 8:00pm, 20 and 2:00am the next morning. Yeah, that. That's my best time. But I do have some blockers.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:45:49]:
That's time for best. Time for what, though? Because that's time for creative work.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:45:54]:
Yeah, it's. It's not for tax filing, but it's for, like working on the business, not in the business. Doing some preparation, having some new ideas, what to do. And basically that's the best time for me to do creative work.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:46:09]:
That's awesome.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:46:10]:
You know that I do have blocks in my calendar. I'm not a philosopher, so I just call them get you done.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:46:22]:
Fair enough. But I'll tell you a funny story. So there's a guy that I've seen body doubling in Suka about The last year or two, usually in the evenings or on weekends. And this spring he posted in the group chat, where you can share things you're working on and people can ask you, oh, I finished my website, here's a link, right? So it's a nice collaborative thing. He posted in there, he finished his dissertation and people asked him like, hey, congratulations, that's awesome. He said, well, you know what? I'm actually a high school assistant vice principal in Missouri. And what I've been doing is using Suka because at night I have maybe 90 minutes of focus time in between family dinner and school responsibilities and all that. So I have to use it really well.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:47:11]:
So at night I have this 90 minute block and in that I've been studying for my PhD in engineering. And then on weekends I do the same thing. He said, so I have to be very efficient with the little bit of time I have when I'm not with my kids, I'm not at work. And so he said, but don't get excited because I only turned in the dissertation. I still have to defend it in front of the panel, like two weeks from Monday or something. So that weekend, coming up to the Monday, there are a number of people in the group chat. They're like, hey, Roy, good luck, man. You have this.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:47:42]:
We're excited to hear how it goes. And on Monday, he was absent, he didn't say anything. And people started asking like, hey, has anyone heard from Roy? How did it go with his defense of his PhD thing? And Tuesday morning he dropped into the group chat and he said, you may now call me Dr. King. And people went crazy. And it validated something. You began this episode by talking about this, but I had to learn this. It validated the power of community.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:48:17]:
When we started doing suka, even under an earlier name and developing this whole stuff, it was a single player game. It was here, here are your tools. There's beautiful music, there are timers, there's a smart assistant. We'll block your phone, we'll block your website. They're all the tools sitting there. But it was alone. And I, as the founder, knew all these members, almost like a hub, and spoke sort of model, but they didn't know each other. And I had an idea.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:48:42]:
Should people be able to see each other, talk to each other? So I talked to a couple members. I was like, is this a good idea or is this the most distracting thing ever? Is this going to be terrible? Right? And one woman said this to me. She said, listen, Steven, I can go to the Nike store. I can buy a pair of shoes. They will sell me a left shoe and a right shoe. I put them on my feet, I run. It works. But there are a hundred million people around the world in the Nike run club because when you run together, you run further, you run faster, you're more accountable.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:49:17]:
The days that you feel bad and your friends come by and pick you off the sofa and you go running, you feel great. Are amazing. And the days when one of your friends needs you to be there and support them and give them energy, they feel even better. She's like, you should do it. It is one of my favorite things because now we do have experiences, like what I was saying with Roy King, where you're part of a group of people who are trying to do something great and there's an energy. Whether it's the coffee shop on Sunset Boulevard, whether it's a run club, there's something powerful about when you're around people like you that are all trying to do something great. It lifts all of you up.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:49:59]:
I see. For our audience, I was wondering what breaks your focus most like Slack pings, meetings, social media, comment. We'll compile a cheat sheet down here. Steven, actually, we would be now going into the ad break, but we've been talking so long. How do you think we call this episode one and then instantly start recording episode two?
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:50:27]:
Fantastic. Let's do it.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:50:29]:
Awesome, guys. Hope to have you back pretty soon. And actually, for you and me, it will be just a few seconds. For the people out there, it will be a few days until the next episode comes out.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:50:40]:
See you soon.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:50:41]:
Talk to you soon.
Steven Puri | CEO of The Sukha Company [00:50:47]:
That's all, folks. Find more news, streams, events and interviews@www.startuprad.IO. remember, sharing is caring.
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