Executive Summary
In this episode of Startuprad.io, host Joe Menninger interviews Angela Relógio, CEO and Founder of TimeTeller, a MedTech startup optimizing cancer treatments based on circadian rhythms. TimeTeller's innovative approach uses in vitro diagnostic tests to analyze genes from saliva and determine the best time for treatments, improving efficacy and reducing side effects. Angela discusses her journey from academic research in molecular biology to founding TimeTeller, which has garnered the 2024 German Startup Award. The episode covers circadian rhythms' impact on health, insights about medication timing, and Angela’s call for like-minded investors and talented scientists.
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Introduction
Joining us is Angela Relógio, the brilliant CEO and founder of TimeTeller, a MedTech startup that's making waves in the field of personalized medicine. Angela's innovative approach helps cancer patients receive their treatments at the optimal time according to their unique circadian rhythms, significantly enhancing the efficacy of medications and radiation therapies.
In this episode, we'll explore how TimeTeller uses advanced gene analytics through simple saliva samples to unlock the secrets of our inner clocks. We'll discuss how circadian rhythms, influenced by both genetics and external factors like light, play a crucial role in bodily functions, including immune response, metabolism, and even sports performance.
Angela will share her incredible journey, from her roots in biophysics and molecular biology to co-founding TimeTeller with Benjamin, her colleague specializing in medical product certification. We'll also touch on the significance of her time at the MBL and Heidelberg, and how her passion for combining physics with medicine has driven her career forward.
Stay tuned to hear about the cutting-edge research and technology behind TimeTeller, the company’s recent accolade as the German Startup Award winner of 2024, and Angela's vision for future advancements in this pioneering field. Plus, Angela will be sharing an exciting opportunity for scientists and investors looking to get involved with TimeTeller.
Let's dive right into the world of personalized medicine with Angela Relógio!
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Questions Discussed in the Interview
How does TimeTeller’s innovative approach using in vitro diagnostic tests significantly improve the timing of cancer treatments?
Can you explain the science behind how circadian rhythms affect the efficacy of both medication and radiation therapy for cancer patients?
How does TimeTeller determine the optimal time for treatments through its gene analytics process using saliva samples?
Considering individual differences in circadian rhythms, such as "larks" and "owls," how does TimeTeller ensure personalized treatment plans for patients?
Why might questionnaires about circadian rhythms produce biased results, and how does TimeTeller’s method overcome this issue?
How do external signals like light impact our circadian rhythms, and what advice would you give to individuals looking to optimize their internal clocks?
TimeTeller has both software and hardware components within its product offering. Can you elaborate on how these components work together to deliver accurate results?
What are the main challenges TimeTeller faces in bringing its technology to clinics and getting widespread adoption among healthcare providers?
Angela mentioned her background and journey, including her significant work experiences at MBL and in Berlin. How have these experiences shaped her approach to leading TimeTeller?
With TimeTeller’s success in winning the German startup award for their innovative MedTech solution, what advice does Angela have for aspiring entrepreneurs in the biotech and MedTech fields?
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The Founder
Our guest for today's episode of Startuprad.io is Angela Relógio (https://www.linkedin.com/in/angela-rel%C3%B3gio-977a77265/), the CEO and Founder of TimeTeller, a groundbreaking MedTech startup dedicated to optimizing cancer treatment through the precise measurement of individuals' circadian rhythms. Angela's extensive academic and professional background is as impressive as it is diverse. She holds a PhD in biomedical science and molecular and cellular biology from Lisbon, has pursued postgraduate studies in biophysics and biomedical engineering, and boasts expertise in engineering and physics, with a specialized focus on biophysics, medical physics, and radiation physics. Angela's illustrious career includes notable tenures at the European Molecular Biology Laboratory and as a research group leader at Charité Medical University in Berlin. This impressive resume paved the way for her to co-found TimeTeller with her colleague, Benjamin, who specializes in the certification of medical products.
Angela's journey into the world of biophysics and medical innovation began in high school with a desire to bridge the gap between physics and medicine, specifically focusing on cancer research and molecular biology. Her time at the Marine Biological Laboratory (MBL) and later as a group leader at Charité provided her with unique insights into the intricate mechanics of biological clocks. This wealth of knowledge and experience culminated in the establishment of TimeTeller, a company that aims to improve the efficacy and reduce the side effects of cancer treatments by precisely timing when medications are administered. Angela's innovative approach has not only led to the development of patented gene analytics technology using saliva samples but has also earned her the prestigious German Startup Award for Newcomer of the Year in 2024. Her dedication to marrying cutting-edge science with practical medical applications continues to drive TimeTeller toward new frontiers in personalized healthcare.
The Startup
TimeTeller (https://www.time-teller.eu/), founded by Angela Relógio, is revolutionizing cancer treatment by synchronizing medication with a patient's genetic circadian rhythm. This MedTech startup has developed an innovative approach that involves using in vitro diagnostic tests to measure patients' internal clocks through saliva samples rather than invasive blood tests. By analyzing key genes, the company can determine the optimal times for administering medication and radiation therapy, thereby maximizing treatment efficacy and minimizing side effects. TimeTeller's technology stands out from the competition because it customizes treatment timings based on a patient’s unique genetic makeup, offering a tailored approach that goes beyond the conventional one-size-fits-all methods. Their significant achievements include being awarded the German startup award for their pioneering approach and Angela Relógio receiving the 2024 newcomer of the year accolade.
TimeTeller’s fundraising efforts have garnered interested investors who share their vision of utilizing gene analytics for personalized cancer treatment. The company is actively seeking new investors to further their mission and scale their innovative technology. In addition to financial backing, TimeTeller continues to expand its team of talented scientists in both computational and experimental fields. Angela’s collaboration with Benjamin, who specializes in the certification of medical products, has also helped the startup navigate the complex regulatory landscape successfully. The startup's product comprises both software and hardware components, with clinical kits that allow sample analysis in laboratories, thus providing a practical solution for healthcare providers. This combination of cutting-edge technology, strategic partnerships, and a solid scientific foundation sets TimeTeller apart from its competitors, positioning it as a front-runner in the realm of precision medicine.
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Time Teller is hiring. You can learn more about open positions here: https://www.time-teller.eu/career
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The Interviewer
This interview was conducted by Jörn “Joe” Menninger, startup scout, founder, and host of Startuprad.io. Reach out to him:
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Automated Transcript
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:00:01]:
Oh.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:01]:
Yeah. My editor is Madu. Madu sees this. Hey, Madu. Mental high five here. Can you say hello, Angela?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:00:08]:
Hello? Hello. Hello. Hello.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:10]:
Now let's get to the official recording, shall we?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:00:13]:
Yes.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:15]:
Hello, and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from start up rate. Io, your start up podcast and YouTube blog from Germany as well as the world's number one tech Internet talk radio station called start up dot radio. Wherever you're listening to this or watching this, make sure to hit the like and subscribe button. Today, I'm very excited to have Angela here with me. Hey.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:00:38]:
Oh, you speak Portuguese.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:41]:
A few words. A few words. You are at people can already tell from Portugal, but you do have a very interesting story. And you were actually here because you're part of our series in the winners of the German startup awards. You won the German startup award 2024 newcomer of the year. Congratulations.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:01:00]:
Well, thank you very much.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:01:02]:
Not only are you an entrepreneur, I would say in MedTech. Would you agree? MedTech?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:01:09]:
Yes. MedTech. It's quite nice.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:01:10]:
You're also a professor, which is very, very exciting and interesting. So let's get a little bit done here. Before that, I would like to thank our sponsor, Startup Raven, the easiest and most efficient way to con to find new cooperation partners and potential investors. Link down here in the show notes. You can register for early access. As we said, Angela, you are doing a med tech, but what totally confused me when I I looked through your CV on LinkedIn, you studied first physics. How did you end up with a medtech startup?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:01:51]:
Oh, well, that is actually quite logic. It fits totally well. Absolutely.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:01:55]:
Please take us along the journey.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:01:57]:
So and it's it's not just physics. It's physics, technological physics engineering. That's the name. So I'm an engineer by background. But the physics course, includes or the physics studies, it always includes quite a strong part in biophysics, medical physics, radiation physics, these kind of things, which you connect quite quite well to medicine. Basically, you cannot do medicine without physics, I would say.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:02:25]:
One question before we proceed with that. You're an engineer. Are you still running around your house at fixing stuff?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:02:33]:
I actually do, and I also install my own lamps and all these kind of things. And I really like to do this stuff. So yes.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:02:42]:
I I use such a Raspberry Pi and open source fan?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:02:48]:
The the that's maybe not so much, but I like playing around with things that I can assemble.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:02:57]:
Okay. I see. Yeah. Typical engineer. You went there to postgraduate pro program in biophysics and biomedical engineering. You got a PhD from Lisbon, Lisboa, in biomedical science and molecular and cellular biology. I actually have no clue what you did there at all. Maybe you can take us through there.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:03:23]:
Yes. And just you also been working at the European Molecular Biology Laboratory, and you did your post doc and later led a research group in lovely Berlin at Charice.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:03:38]:
That is correct.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:03:39]:
That that that's already a lot of stuff. I just
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:03:41]:
want me to summarize all that now?
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:03:43]:
But but take take us through the journey. Why did you do that?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:03:47]:
Okay. So kind of
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:03:48]:
quickly through it. And everybody who's watching this, I'm sorry. I'm sweating here. We are actually recalling this in the hottest day during August. So I have 30 plus degrees Celsius here in my little office. I'm really sorry when I'm sweating here. Sorry, Angela. Go ahead.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:04:06]:
That's okay. So Hamburg is quite pleasant. You may want to come here. Not so hot.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:04:11]:
I have it on my to do list.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:04:14]:
So I I liked oh, I always liked the sciences. And therefore, when I was in high school, it was more the decision, do I want to go for physics or do I want to go for medicine? But I I thought I could put both of them together, and the easiest way to do it would be first to go for physics and then to go for medicine. That was my initial plan. Yes. Don't look like that. It was my plan. I changed my mind then, but I still studied a lot of medical related things while I was doing the physics. And I went to the EMBL, which you talked about, and that's where I did my doctor, where I did my doctoral work.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:04:50]:
So that's the PhD. It's a joint PhD between Lisbon and the MBL. It was actually the first joint PhD that they that they did between the University of Lisbon and the MBL. And so why the MBL? So for the ones of you potentially wanting to do a doctor or, a PhD, The NBL is a European, organization, a European Institute, which has several outstations. I went to the one in Heidelberg, but it's Europe. It's not German. It's quite a big difference. So you speak English there.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:05:21]:
I couldn't speak a word of German when I went there. And they are very flexible in the way they think about things. So they are very open to have a physicist who has never entered the lab, going there to an experimental lab and doing real experiments. And this is what I wanted to do. So that's why I went there. So I could apply some of the stuff that I knew from my engineering and my physics, but I could learn a lot of new stuff. And I started there the cancer research, which I had already been doing in the physics, but I was more in the field of radiotherapy and radiation and this kind of stuff. And then I went more into the molecular biology, and this you can connect.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:06:02]:
So you cannot stay for the rest of your life at the MBL. I don't know if I would have stayed, if I could or not. So it's a wonderful place, but it's it's sort like a rotation place. So they want to give the opportunity to as many people as possible to pass by. So you go there, you stay 3, 4 years, and then you should go somewhere else. So I went to Berlin. Why not? I mean, it's it's a nice city as well, but it did it felt like a different planet even though it was the same country, you know, because because you are at the MBL and you are kind of in a bubble, and you speak English all the time, and you know everyone, and all of a sudden you go to Berlin. And and then you are in Germany.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:06:46]:
And it's a it's a different experience. A fantastic experience, but a different experience. And that's where I then became also a group leader at the Schaght Medical University.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:07:00]:
We may add that Heidelberg is a very, very nice, lovely, small city Oh, it's beautiful. With a lot of very old buildings, former castle and so on and so forth.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:07:12]:
Very romantic.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:07:13]:
One of the world's oldest universities there. Yeah. Very lovely. Very nice place to visit. You can go down here in the show notes. I'll link the Wikipedia article to them. Actually, it it's a place I also like to visit. It's not too far away from here.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:07:27]:
And, actually You used to say
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:07:28]:
you lose your heart in Heidelberg. So I got married there. Maybe that's that's the proof.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:07:35]:
I I I didn't get married there, but my godchild lives close by. Okay. And so that is basically the thing you did. Then you came to Berlin, and at what point did you decide to spin off your knowledge
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:07:58]:
Company.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:07:58]:
Your know how into company? And you also do have a cofounder. When did you meet him?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:08:04]:
Well, that took that took some time. So I came to Berlin, in 2007. And I first was still fighting with with the sort of, do I really want to start a group in academia? So you you may know that an academic career is not the easiest thing to do. There is no guarantees of anything, and you jump from one place to the other always after the next grant and this kind of things. But I mean, it is still exciting and the research is amazing. So it's quite a luxuz. And and I decided first, I want to be a group leader. And that's what I did.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:08:41]:
And then I did it for quite some time, and that's where the entire or the science and the ideas behind the company was developed. So then what was really key was that the university and and several universities have this kind of programs these days. So the Charite had first a program called inventors for health where, you just need an idea. You don't need to prove anything. You have an idea, and they make a sort of a boot camp. You go there. You discuss this idea, and you see if if you convince people about your idea. If yes, then you get some funding to indeed try to show the idea has something on it.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:09:19]:
So this was the first thing, that I got at the shahiti. And and after this, they had a different program called digital health accelerator, and they really give you very large amounts of funding. You can get up to a1000000, and then you can really develop something. And that's how we develop the entire thing around our company, not just then the the technology, but also the bureaucratic things, connected to certifications and this and that. And that's where I got to know my cofounder.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:09:49]:
I see. And then, did did you hit it off quite well? And, actually, my understanding right now is you are applying the research you did with the company. Was there also part that that your cofounder put in in the company?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:10:11]:
So not is, the so my company has a 3 three elements, so to say. So the one is the university itself. It's part of the company, then me and and the cofounder as well. So the expertise of of this colleague of mine, his name is Benjamin. So the expertise of Benjamin is, is also from a scientific background, also has a PhD, but he had expertise in certification of medical products, which I didn't have. So this was really good. So that was the part where he came in. So not to develop the product per se and its technology, but to develop the way how do you make this product as a medical product, in all its legal aspects acceptable.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:01]:
And we may add for our audience that you just simply cannot offer any medical product as they can already assume you have to go through
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:11:12]:
a search case. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:15]:
And, that is where the expertise of your cofounder lies.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:11:19]:
Exactly. And you also cannot just do this kind of stuff, from a university group. So you do need to start a company. So that that was my motivation to start a company, you know, because at some point, I mean, you reach the stage where you have the product and you have the impression this this could work and this can help a lot of people, but you are, you are bound to the persons that you have within the clinical studies, where you do your research, and you would like to go to go broader and to, to reach more people. And for this, you need to get a medical product. And for this, you need to start a company. Yeah.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:55]:
I see. Now we've been talking a little bit about how you started your company, how you met your cofounder, and now everybody would be interesting for what you did get the German startup award. Let me quickly, tell this. This interview is a media partnership with the German startup association. Their German startup awards gsa 24 honor each year outstanding female MA founders and investors in special categories. You can learn more about them on here in our show notes. That said, you are the newcomer of the year, and with what idea did you, start here? We already know it's from your research, and I've gotten it, is related to your inner clock.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:12:52]:
That is correct. So it's related to the system that makes time inside all of us. And what we what we came to the conclusion or what we wanted to use was to to have this this basic idea, which is like this. If your body has certain times to do certain things, your body also has best times to take certain medicines. And if you take this medicines at this optimal times of the day, then you will have less side effects, and you will benefit more from the medicines. And now you would think, okay, what kind of a disease would benefit a lot from an approach like this? What kind of a disease has massive side effects and would benefit from more efficacy and such a disease is, cancer because it's one of the treatments, the anti cancer treatments where side effects can be so high that sometimes patients, they can't be treated because of the side effects, not because it wouldn't work. So there, you you really need more things. You need something new, and that's what we wanted to do and what we are doing.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:14:01]:
So your let me try to to keep this pretty simple. Your start up time teller helps cancer patients to get the medication at the optimal time according to their inner clock.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:14:18]:
We measure which time that is. So time teller is a is a diagnosis. It's a so called in vitro diagnosis that measures your clock. And based on that says, this is for you and for this treatment, the best time to take the treatment.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:14:39]:
I see.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:14:39]:
But not which treatment you should take. So it's different.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:14:43]:
Right? Yes. But I do assume we mostly talk about track treatments, either medication you can intake anywhere or you get a IV or something like this. Is that true? Or does it also apply to something like radiation therapy?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:15:02]:
So I am not yet doing anything with radiation therapy, but, yes, it would also apply to radiation therapy. So there are studies with radiotherapy where it was shown that depending on the time of the day when it is given, patients react quite differently, and they cope better with the therapy or not. So you can you can pretty much apply this to to anything, actually, and not just to cancer. Imagine you are adding a new dimension, which is a dimension time, so a new complexity. And, we just cannot ignore it.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:15:40]:
Can you tell us a little bit about this circadian rhythm? I have one example here for me. I'm the person who stays up pretty late. You can usually find me working at, 10 PM, 22 o'clock in the evening. That's the best time. Everything's quiet. I'm highly focused. Everything is awesome. And then I would usually like to sleep in at least until 10 the next morning, but my wife is, she she's completely different.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:16:09]:
She loves to get up early. Would that be an example of different circadian rhythms? So Can you tell us why those people always end up together?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:16:20]:
I guess because they love each other. And because on that respect, you probably found a time where you are both awake, at the same time. But apart from that, it should not be a reason how to pick up your partner. So, yes, we have this internal rhythms. And this internal rhythms, they are dictated by our genes. So it's really not ocus pocus kind of stuff. It's true science. There has been already a Nobel Prize for it, and this was already, 2017.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:16:52]:
But, the important thing here is that we know quite well that this 24 hours exist, but they are different for each of us. So assuming we don't force the rhythm. So imagine that you are actually waking up early because you always have an alarm clock. Then that's probably not your real rhythm, that's the rhythm of your clock, your alarm clock. So but assuming you wouldn't use any of that and you still wake up quite early or quite late or you like to work earlier or late, that's that's very likely, strongly connected to your rhythm. And it makes a difference. Now the example you even gave with you and your wife, without wanting to put too much cliche here, but there are some groups. And for example, females, they tend to have earlier, phenotypes than males.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:17:37]:
So they tend to have a tendency to wake up earlier, to go to bed earlier, and males somehow a bit shifted. So this, of course, doesn't apply to everybody. This also changes where, when we get older. So if you have kids at home or people that have kids at home, you will know that babies, they probably don't have the same rhythm as their parents. Right? So it's a problem. It drives us crazy in the beginning. Right? We want to sleep, they don't, This kind of stuff. So this is because
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:18:05]:
have, like, any rhythm at all for them is day and night exactly the same.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:18:10]:
Yeah. Kind of. So their problem is they are not yet synchronized with the outside world. So we have a rhythm that runs per se. So even if you are locked inside the room, you have no clue what time it is, and you have no daylight, you still wake up and go to bed every day. So it's not that people sometimes they ask my students, you know, so are you convinced if you don't have an alarm clock, you would never wake up? Of course, some will say yes, but that's not true. They would wake up anyway because they have this internal clock. But sometimes it's not synchronized with the outside world.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:18:43]:
And this happens to the babies. So you need to give them a certain time, then they get synchronized, and they are fine again. Then when you get teenagers, you can you you you run again a bit into a problem. So they get shifted.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:18:56]:
What problem?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:18:57]:
No. No. No. It's not a problem. Let's call it a challenge. It's a challenge because they get a bit shifted. So they tend to wake up later, go to bed later. Yeah.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:19:07]:
Of course, they they don't help the situation because they like to play around with the handys a lot and this kind of things. That that will not help. The more light your eyes get, the less you would like to go to sleep. So that's, counterproductive. But anyway, so that also goes away at some point in your early twenties when you become a grown up. And then you continue and through your life your clock will change again and again and again, just like our faces also change. But but you still have your very own rhythm, which is different from the rhythm of your wife.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:19:44]:
Mhmm. Are there, like, clusters, groups, or types of people who do have a certain circadian rhythm? I, know, for example, that there's one type called, for people who like to stay ablate, they're called owls, or do you have a lot more of those types? And how does it then, again, tuck into the cancer treatment we've been talking about?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:20:13]:
So you you basically have a continuous spectrum of all possibilities, but still the average that or the largest group of the population will have what fits to our normal society, yeah, which is somewhere in the middle. Then you have a group that is the very early group, which you call the the larks, and then you have the old, as you said, the later group. And then you could think about many other animals in between. But, I mean, that's that's not not
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:20:41]:
really something that is active at night.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:20:44]:
Yeah. So I also like to to work maybe. No. You are more like the the old then. That's what you call it. I also like to work at night, But but you have pretty much everything. But these groups, they are typically found by doing questionnaires. So there are different sorts of questionnaires.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:21:04]:
You can find them in the Internet, so you fill it in, and then it tells you you belong to this group, whatever. But that's very subjective as you may imagine. And what we realize, if we give this to people in our studies, sometimes people reply to these questions, not with the truth, but with what they think they would like to be. So that's very funny. Yeah. And then they ended up with a profile that is totally opposite to what they really do because just they think they would be better. For some reason, everybody thinks it should be good to wake up early. Yeah.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:21:37]:
I don't know why, but okay. So but what we do in the connection to the cancer is we want to find out exactly the profile or or the, the clock of these people. But for us, it's not enough to know if they are just early or just late. We need to go more precise than that. So we measure their genes. And their genes, when we measure them, it gives us a curve. It's like a wave. Yeah? And with this wave, we we see different things.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:22:06]:
We see when the first peak of the wave comes, and we see how high that peak is, so the amplitude of this wave. And with this, we can calculate certain things.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:22:17]:
And, let me let me try to dumb this down this a little bit. This wave is kind of when your body gets active, when your body wakes up from hibernation or something.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:22:27]:
This this wave is a 24 hour repetitive wave, which has a a high and a low, and that's your circadian rhythm. So it's called actually circadian circa means about, and, comes from a comes from, which is a day. So it's a rhythm that is about a day. So we have other rhythms in our body, but this particular rhythm is our 24 hours rhythm. And so you can always measure your genes are pretty much, not all of them, but the majority. They're pretty much going up and down, up and down, up and down in their activity. So they are more active, less active, more active, less active. And they are involved in different processes.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:23:05]:
For example, your immune system. So that means you have times of the day when your immune system is more active or less active, which is also the reason why you have time of the days where you react with more, allergic to certain things or times of the day where you are more likely to get a cold or less because your immune system was more prepared for that. The same happens to your metabolism and all these kind of things. So you also have best time for sports, if you will.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:23:39]:
That is all quite interesting and fascinating. I would be curious. I just have a a wave with a peak and a valley that is now in my mind How
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:23:49]:
much is.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:23:50]:
Yeah. In terms of, 24 hours activity of my genes, of my immune system, my whole body, my circadian rhythm. And I would be interested in a few questions here. When is the best time to give those cancer medications, And when would be the best time to work out? Meaning, is it all on the peak or in the valley?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:24:12]:
You cannot say it like that. So for the cancer medications, it depends on the medication. So we really need to know, and, we don't need to know what type of cancer a person has. We need to know which medication the person is taking. And then we need to know what this medication does to your body. And only then we could say that is the best time. So, my my mathematical equations, they wouldn't, do anything with the word medication. They would need to know exactly how this medication works And then could do something with the circadian rhythm and the medication.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:24:54]:
So it's, it's not new knowledge in terms of what is already being doing in research and what is already being doing by pharma companies when they develop a new medication. They, of course, know quite well how it work. The new knowledge is that we typically consider what something is doing, but not when. And now we say, but it's also important when. So it's just this factor when that we bring in. The rest of the knowledge has to be already there, if this was clear somehow.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:25:31]:
Yeah. And for the sports, is it best when you're most active or when you're least active?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:25:37]:
So for the sports, it's mostly it will depend on which sports. So what we do is we typically, split people at the moment, in things which is more like endurance or strengths or so. For most people, it is better to do endurance, so jogging, if you want, rather in the late afternoon, not at 6 in the morning. So that's very common. Right? So, like, go jogging in the morning. It might fit some people, but for most of them, it's rather rather go jogging at 6 in the afternoon. Yeah. So it tends to be better.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:26:14]:
Strength training, this rather tends to be better in the morning, and they relate in opposite ways to these peaks of these genes that we measure. But we we do measure specific genes depending on the question we are asking. So if we are asking the question about sports, we measure this wave for a specific set of genes. If it's about treatment, we take another set of genes and so on.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:26:44]:
This circadian rhythm, is it also already formed when you have a kid, like, 4 or 5 years old, or does it form over your adulthood? As as you said, it they're kind of shifting, and it's one of the many problems when you have a teenager at home.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:27:02]:
You have a teenager?
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:27:04]:
Nope. Not
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:27:08]:
yet. So, you have these genes, from the beginning on. And what they don't have, but this is not anymore the 4 years old. They typically have a nice rhythm already, but rather just the babies. So even though the gene these genes and this clock, it works anyway without external signals, there is a very powerful external signal, which is light. So light is extremely, extremely important for us because it gives us every day a sort of a reset signal. Yeah? So and this makes us be in time or makes us fit the outside world. Now in principle, humans are day active animals, so we get the light signals in the morning maybe, and then we stop receiving the light signals the more we go to the late evening or to the night, and then we sleep.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:28:01]:
And and this stays and this helps us to stay, to stay synchronized with our world. For the teenagers, this is the only time when really the shift is too strong. And this is because of the entire hormonal disbalance that at some point happens there. And they need some time, but then they are but then they are fine again.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:28:22]:
I see. Which means
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:28:24]:
if you start getting a lot of night, light in the middle of the night, then you shift your rhythms. And you are doing it then basically on purpose, and you shift them later.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:28:35]:
When you work late, for example, like me in front of screens, at 10, 11, in the evening, that is, that is basically shifting my circadian rhythm by myself.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:28:48]:
Yes. You will do that. Yeah.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:28:50]:
And it also means when you start fumbling around, playing around with your, cell phone, replying to WhatsApp messages when kids are in bed, that also will shift your circadian rhythm Yeah. Later.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:29:03]:
Yes. And it will likely, result in you having more troubles to fall asleep. But, I mean, it's like everything's in in science always. So you you have something which happens it happens the most, but it doesn't happen to everyone. So I'm sure there are a lot of people that will do this, and they will still sleep like a stone.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:29:28]:
I see. And now the question is, what do you do with the company there? You're talking about genes, gene analytics. So I would assume what your company does is drawing a little amount of blood, putting into a very big machine, and analyzing, like, I wouldn't say a handful of genes, but a few hundred, and then you kind of get an idea at your circadian rhythm with that
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:30:02]:
Oh, actually, it's much better than that. We don't
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:30:06]:
take blood.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:30:07]:
We take saliva. You have to spit. So it doesn't hurt. That's very good. But you need to spit, 4 times a day because we need this this wave. And if you just do it once, we are not precise enough. And we don't need to measure hundreds of genes. We just need a few.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:30:27]:
And that depends on the application, maybe less than 10.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:30:32]:
Okay. I see. And then, basically, the split goes to into analytics machines?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:30:38]:
It goes to machine. Yeah.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:30:39]:
Yeah. Any company, is it producing the machine or just the algorithms to analyze it?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:30:47]:
No. So the company, so we have, patents, filed already. One of them is granted, and we have 2 components. So the one is the experimental part, which is the way, that we measure, that we manage, and that we develop to measure these these genes, or the activity of these genes out of the saliva is is different than what was already existing. And then the way that we analyze the things is different than what was already existing. So there is an experimental part and a computational part. And together, they make the product that we that we offer. The machines that we use, that we haven't developed, the machines already exist.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:31:31]:
We buy them.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:31:32]:
So so your product is a software?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:31:36]:
Our product is a software and a hardware, and the hardware part is the lab part. It's an experimental protocol.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:31:50]:
Clinics could buy a product in order to but by the way, it only makes sense for clinics who have oncologist stations to really have them, and then they get the little piece of hardware in there, and then they put the software on their analysis, on the computers as well?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:32:10]:
So the idea is different. The idea is so our we are the company is called Time Teller, and we sell this this Time Teller kit. So the idea would be you buy the time teller kit, you spit, and you send us back the samples to the lab. We then do the analysis, and we send you back the result. That's the idea. Not that you install the whole thing. That would be more complicated because, you do need, personnel that has a certain experience or a certain knowledge to be able to do the different the different parts of it. Yeah.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:32:46]:
I see. And I think we we now learned quite a lot of stuff about our circadian rhythm when we should use strength and endurance training, and that most people do it doing it wrong. But I had actually prepared like it does questions for you. I didn't ask any, and we are already running more than 30 minutes of our recording time. But I find this
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:33:11]:
Let me just say a little bit something very quickly just because you use the word wrong. Yeah. So people should not think that they are doing sports at the wrong time. So I would still argue, you better do it whenever than not do it at all. Of course, if you do it very late, that will disturb your sleep. That's not such a good idea. Yeah. So don't start jogging at 10 in the night or so.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:33:33]:
So. But apart from that, everything is fine. Now the difference in these times, it will have a difference in your performance. So if you would be a professional athlete and you want to go to the Olympics, you may really, really, really want to know because maybe you want to train a lot at this optimal time. It might help you to develop even more and to get the extra seconds. It might. Yeah? But that's the idea. The performance is even better.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:33:59]:
So therefore, your body has more from it likely.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:34:03]:
I see. I'm still doing it wrong anyways. You go on
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:34:09]:
Because you don't do it at all.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:34:11]:
I'll never attend, Olympic games may maybe as one of the people in front of the curling curl, brushing brushing the ice or something. That's a place I could imagine myself, at the Olympics, but or as lifeguard during the swim events. Anyway, that that by by the way, I'm not qualified as a lifeguard. Okay. That that was a totally fascinating conversation and we were running we would start now with a question. It would go into hours of interview, and I don't think we can do that here. Hopefully, I have you back sometime down the road. I I would like to close our little interview here.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:34:56]:
Everybody who'd like to learn more about Time Teller, go down here in the show notes. There will be a link to your LinkedIn profile as well as to the company website. I would like to close with a 2 3 questions. Number 1, we do know we are global top 60 science podcast in the world according to Chartwell. There are a lot of men and women and all the other sex of listening to this maybe in their laboratory. What recommendation would you have for them if they're currently in laboratory doing the research and want to start a company?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:35:40]:
Oh, so if that's what I thought you were going to ask me something else. But okay. That's also fine. Then I would say, you should, if you want to start a company, then think very well what what is the product that you want to develop and watch out that you do not publish something before. Because if you publish, then you cannot have a patent. If you cannot have a patent, then you have a problem to find investment and to develop the product. So So that's one thing. However, you can publish after.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:36:10]:
That's what we have done. So we still want to drive science further and we publish everything we develop. So the other thing you should watch out or you should pay attention is, does your university offer a program to support something like this? And currently, many universities, in particular medical universities actually, are offering such programs. And this is very, very helpful. Not just the money, but also the expertise which is associated to such programs.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:36:40]:
I see. Yeah. That that, as we said, that takes a lot of, of special know how. My question would be, what other question did you expect I would ask you?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:36:53]:
I thought you were going to tell me because you started to say people that work in the lab. What should they think about this circadian rhythms? And I was going to tell them, look, if in 2 consecutive days, you don't have the same results in your experiments, then think about it. If maybe in one day you did it in the morning and in the other day you did it in the afternoon. Because maybe you were measuring things at a different time and that's why they were behaving differently.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:37:16]:
Mhmm. Okay. And the other two questions are, are you open to talk to new investors?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:37:24]:
Yes. Of course. Of course. In particular and I mean, I'm not sure if I should maybe then say this. But I mean, I would really like to talk to investors that share that share a vision with us. You know? So I'm saying this because sometimes you have the impression people don't care so much. It's just about putting money in and getting money out. And I would really, really like to talk to investors that say we also want to participate on this because we think it will help a lot of people.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:37:57]:
Mhmm. That's pretty good. And, do you also look for talented people?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:38:03]:
Always.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:38:04]:
Always.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:38:05]:
Always.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:38:05]:
And we we link, your website down here. I'm not sure. I just, while you were talking, I linked your r and d page where if people scroll down, they can find all the papers you've published there. And I'll link, of course, your career website here where people may apply if they find it interesting Yes. And want to have
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:38:27]:
Send me send me an email. We're always looking for talented scientists, both in the computational field as well as in the experimental field. And with us, you have the chance that you can you can do your research, but you can also try to develop it in something that you see the use of it on real people.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:38:48]:
Angela, thank you very much. It was a very interesting interview. We're now talking for almost, 40 minutes even though, it it completely went out the race.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:38:57]:
And you did not even ask me about. That surprised me now.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:39:02]:
Sorry? I I didn't ask you about?
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:39:04]:
About because it means clock when you started to speak Portuguese.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:39:09]:
Yeah. I'd no. I I didn't I I only have, like, a handful of words I can tell with Portuguese. And I think Well,
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:39:23]:
then you know.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:39:25]:
Oh, means clog. That is actually a good closing word here in terms of our interview. Angela, thank you very much. It was, it was a pleasure talking to you and, hopefully, to have you back in some time.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:39:43]:
Thank
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:39:43]:
you. Have a good day. Bye bye.
Angela Relógio | CEO and Founder | TimeTeller [00:39:45]:
You as well. Bye.
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