Mastering Startup Negotiation Tactics: Sales Psychology Meets FBI Playbooks
- Jörn Menninger
- vor 3 Tagen
- 31 Min. Lesezeit
💼 Management Summary
In this high-impact blog post, we break down negotiation and sales psychology strategies for startup founders, based on our in-depth conversation with Matthias Bullmahn — an expert trained by both the FBI and Scotland Yard. Whether you’re pitching investors, closing enterprise deals, or leading agile transformation, this post offers practical frameworks, psychological tools, and communication tactics tailored for startup leaders. If you're serious about building trust, scaling ethically, and getting better results without manipulation — keep reading.
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🔍 What Are the Best Negotiation Tactics for Startup Founders?
Featured Snippet Answer (Optimized):Startup founders benefit most from ethical, psychology-based negotiation tactics like BATNA (Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement), motivational profiling, and active listening. These reduce emotional decision-making and increase deal success by aligning communication with investor or client psychology.
🎯 How Does Sales Psychology Influence Startup Success?
Sales psychology helps founders build trust, resonate emotionally, and craft compelling narratives. According to Matthias, avoiding the words “help,” “work,” and “learn” in pitches creates a stronger psychological appeal. Buyers want fast, simple wins — not complexity or hard effort.
Real-World Tip:
Replace “help” with outcomes
Use emotional triggers aligned with buyer type
Practice active listening (not just hearing)
🧠 Learn more about ethical persuasion in our episode on Startup Ethics and Influence.
🧠 What Is BATNA and Why Is It Crucial in Founder Negotiations?
BATNA stands for “Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement.” For founders, it means knowing your walk-away point in investor talks or B2B deals. Lack of a BATNA leads to rushed decisions, high discounts, and bad contracts.
Real-World Tip:Before your next negotiation, write out your BATNA and SOPA (Strategic Options & Possible Alternatives). This reduces stress and boosts leverage.
📚 Recommended Reading: Harvard Negotiation Project
🧭 What Is the Motive Compass and How Can It Improve Startup Messaging?
Matthias introduces the Motive Compass, a neuroscience model classifying buyers as:
Red: Status-driven (Think Trump, C-suite)
Blue: Data-driven (Finance, engineers)
Green: People-first (Social workers, HR)
Yellow: Fun-driven (Creative, entertainers)
🟢🟠 Adapt your messaging accordingly:
Red: “Be #1 with our solution.”
Blue: “Secure performance with 99.9% uptime.”
Green: “This platform supports your community.”
Yellow: “Let’s have fun while growing.”
This model boosts engagement and conversion across emails, LinkedIn posts, and investor decks.
🤖 Can You Use AI in Sales and Still Be Authentic?
AI is a tool — not a crutch. Matthias warns against over-automation in sales outreach. Emotionless AI messages trigger distrust. Instead, use AI for ideas, outlines, and drafts — then rewrite with your own “voice.”
Pro Tip:Your audience can sense the “Matthias sauce” is missing when AI does all the talking. Personalization still closes the deal.
🔄 What’s the Role of Communication in Agile Transformation?
Scaling agile across startups or corporates fails when communication is neglected. Leaders must:
Identify where stakeholders fall on the 5-stage change curve
Address fear of uncertainty
Provide a clear “why” for the transformation
Agile isn’t a buzzword — it’s a mindset shift, and psychology leads that change.
🧵 You Should Also Read
Explore related insights from Startuprad.io (coming soon):
The Psychology of Sales: 3 Words That Kill Your Startup Pitch
How Startup Founders Use Podcasts to Win Enterprise Deals
Avoid These Top 5 Growth Marketing Mistakes in Germany
🔗 External References
📣 Connect With Us
Work with us: partnerships@startuprad.ioSubscribe: https://linktr.ee/startupradioFeedback: https://forms.gle/SrcGUpycu26fvMFE9Follow Joe on LinkedIn: Jörn Menninger
✍️ About the Author
Jörn “Joe” Menninger is the founder and host of Startuprad.io — one of Europe’s top startup podcasts and a global Top 20 show in Entrepreneurship. With 15+ years of experience in consulting, startup scouting, and digital strategy, Joe helps founders and investors turn bold ideas into real-world impact.Follow him on LinkedIn.
💬 What Do You Think?
💡 Enjoyed this post? Share it with a founder, leave a review on your favorite podcast platform, and tell us what negotiation tactic worked for you!
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🤖 Automated Transcript
Narrator Dorsey Jackson [00:00:05]:
Welcome to startuprad.io, your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German startup scene with news, interviews, and live events.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:00:20]:
Hello, and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from StartUpBreto.io, your gateway to the world of startups, tech, and innovation across Germany, Switzerland, and Austria with a global perspective. Today's guest brings a razor sharp mind, FBI level training, and a whole lot of real world wisdom to the microphone. Matthias Buhlmann is one of Germany's leading voices in safe psychology, crisis negotiations, and strategic communications for founders and executives. He has been trained by the former head of FBI hostage negotiation unit, holds a TUV certification in Verkhauspzuzologie, meaning sales psychology, and is a certified storytelling coach whose methods have helped startups, corporates, and solopreneurs alike turn cold leads into powerful connections without manipulation, hopefully. He's the creator of the podcast, so meaning psychology does that sells and what is Skagil?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:01:23]:
Skagil is about scaling agile. So also I'm an interim manager and support large companies with agile digital, transformation. So and I was running an own department within Accenture where I worked seven years, which combines as a large SP programs and scaling agile.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:01:41]:
Great. And in this podcast, you break down the science of influence in sales, leadership, and large scale agile transformation, whether you're advertising executive teams, preparing founders for high stakes investor talks, or teaching emotional triggered strategies for Gen Z buyers, Matisse always leads with clarity, authenticity, and results. Today, we'll uncover how founders can negotiate like pros, how messaging psychology can drive real growth, and what startups can learn from FBI playbooks, motivational hormone models, and Netflix worthy storytelling frameworks. Matthias, welcome to the show and a real pleasure to have you here with us.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:02:27]:
Johan, thank you very much for inviting me. I'm really happy to be here, and I can add some one thing. I was also trained before three weeks by the ex director of crisis and, houses negotiation from Scotland Yard, from Nicki Perfect also. Yeah.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:02:44]:
That is a great name for trainer, Nicki Perfect.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:02:48]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:02:50]:
Amazing. I was wondering, let's open with bold prediction. What bold prediction do you have for the future of communication, negotiation, or sales psychology for 2030?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:03:04]:
It's the same like in the last ten, fifteen years, one million years. People buying from people. And for sure, we can use k I a I and so on. But at the end of the day, on the bottom line, it's about emotions. Yeah. And it's about my own emotions to get them on the control and also to trigger the positive emotions from the opposite side at the end of the day.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:03:32]:
Mhmm. I see. But I get the feeling you cannot sell necessarily with AI, but you can really work on the funnel that brings a potential lead to you.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:03:44]:
Absolutely. You see that LinkedIn currently, you and a lot of KI stuff is out there also commands from KI and I see that's a little bit heartless. And this is what I what I really see and feel then, and this person's doesn't have so much success. For sure, I work also in the preparation and for my funnels also with KI. But at the end of the day, I look over it, and I really do copywriting by myself at the end of the day also. Ideas I get from the KI sometimes because brain is empty. I'm a knowledge worker, you know. But at the end of the day, I I I have a hands on mentality.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:04:27]:
And at the end of the day, I will do things by my own.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:04:31]:
Mhmm. Let's start at the beginning. What was the moment that led you to study FBI style negotiation and psychology for business?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:04:44]:
My moment and greetings going out to my ex boss, Malte, at Accenture. He taught me my tears. What you do is good, but you can do it better because, you are not trained in negotiation. It wasn't twenty twenty, two, three months before we had the first lockdown in Germany with corona. And I had a really good training. The first time that I had a negotiation training. And the outcome was, Matthias, you're one of the best guys we ever trained, but now you are much more better than before because you got a lot of practices and knowledge from experienced trainers. And after two years, I asked myself, okay, is this all with, with negotiation, or can I do something else? And then I was informed myself about negotiation trainings.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:05:40]:
There's a lot of negotiations, negotiation trainings out there. And I found a really, really good trainer, and I had five or six classes with him. He's since twenty five years with the Harvard professors and do a lot of, science or things, which his training is based on. And on one day, he said, Matthias, I have offer for you. I get the ex FBI chef, boss from the negotiation unit, Gary Nusner. Are you willing to have a training with him? I directly say yes. And this was my way to the crazy things that I I had a training with the f, with the ex FBI crisis negotiation, unit boss, Gary Nusna. Yeah.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:06:30]:
My moment was at Accenture, where I was doing a lot of sales, recruiting, and my boss see that there's much more in me, but I need to uncover it with the professional training.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:06:47]:
Mhmm. Many people still associate selling with manipulation. How do you define ethical sales psychology and why the founders need it more than ever?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:07:00]:
We see other people two times in our life. So I was an ex sales professional before fifteen and twenty years before I study after my my apprenticeship, in the early two thousands. And from the benny beginning, I saw a lot of salespeople who sell more than they can. At the end of the day, and I was in the software division selling software, I saw that a lot of IT technicians and developers needs to do something what they cannot do, because salespeople promise, declined, they can do it. And for me, from the first day, it was really clear. I don't sell things which I cannot deliver, full stop. And for sure, I didn't do I didn't make all the deals what I can in the past. But at the end of the day, when I see the persons a second time, I can I can go out and, get a drink with them so they are not angry to me? And I had it one time in my life, Joe, Yiran, because I was a professional chief entertainer.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:08:11]:
And in this time at, I met a old client for me. And he said, my tears was the best sales whatever I had because you only promised what you can deliver. So people after you from your company promised me more but didn't deliver or really late, and this is what I really appreciate. And at the end of the day, when I'm a founder and I have a lot of lot of context to founders, in Zolling and also Dusseldorf, a way of support, and they're really loving their solutions. And they need to make more clear what the boundaries are. Don't promise what you can't deliver. At the end of the day, a lot of startups failed, and it's totally okay. A girlfriend of mine said, I found it 12 times.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:09:04]:
11 times doesn't work. And this is in Germany, we know, I'm not it's not okay, but in the other world, it's okay if you fail and if you learn out of it. But don't deliver don't promise what you can't deliver. Because at the end of the day, if you then be a new founder for another product and it's the same target group, maybe you come back to the, old client and there doesn't will be a new client. So don't promise. And the ethical thing is a really big thing in, in the negotiation. Also, there are a lot of studies out of it. But at the end of the day, if you're a friendly person in sales or negotiation, be sure at the end of the day, the other person will be friendly also.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:09:55]:
Or the if not, then the other person maybe is not, the right target person for a product or for a company.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:10:04]:
We're getting straight into the next question. By the way, most people won't see it, but I have seen that you have a cat in the background. What's the name of the anonymous guest?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:10:15]:
This is Tia. She's now laying here. And the other one is easy. It's they're both, British shorthairs, and the other one is a, yeah, real big, British shorthair cat. Yeah. They're my ladies here. They're most agile, the most trade negotiation cats in the world. So they doesn't want to do my job so that I can lay on a on a beach.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:10:36]:
Yeah.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:10:37]:
I see. We are already getting a little bit into tactical deep dive frameworks and tools. And I was wondering what do you think is the biggest misconception startup leaders have about negotiating especially under pressure like the BATNA framework for founders?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:10:56]:
They often have no BATNA. So and for the people outside, what is a BATNA? The best alternative to negotiated agreement, it's our best plan b. So for sure, we work here with a plan b. And if you don't have a plan b, so if you don't can make it in another way, then the only way to make sales, to make a deal is now in on this table. And this brings you sometimes not in the best situation. So you give up earlier, you give a lot of rebates, etcetera. So be sure that you have a best alternative to a negotiated agreement. So the question is, what can I do when I go out of the table and have no result here? That's the question.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:11:44]:
And often enough, people think for sure we can negotiate. I was a negotiator in the school. I was doing the the the or some other things what I organized for other, pupils and in my school. You you you call it negotiation. And I was five and a half years in a a child in youth psychiatry as I was 11 until 16. And I was negotiating for my life a lot, but this has nothing to do with the same things what I did after a professional training. And this doesn't mean that you need to do six, seven trainings like me and FBI and Scotland Yard trainings. It's absolutely enough when you do two days of professional training.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:12:35]:
For example, Harvard concept or the trainers who are really experienced and also have, professional trainings, etcetera. Yeah. Two days are enough, and there are two studies out there from 02/2010, which prove this also that people who are trained two days with the Harvard negotiation concept, basic training, nothing special, Johan, that they are much more effectful than people who are not trained. It's really easy. It's not that difficult, to be honest. And it it doesn't needs to cost 10,000 of euros. If you have a good trainer, you can make it with a group two days, five to 10,000, people. If you have a big group of ten, twelve people, you know, so per person around €3,000 maximum.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:13:29]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:13:31]:
And how can start up founders use the either BATNA or SOPA framework to improve their investor negotiations or enterprise deals?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:13:43]:
So first of all, you need to zoom out and don't be emotional because it's your child at the end of the day. If you are founder, then it's your child. And some people say, yeah, the first thing what I killed is my my child, but not my human child. So my my professional, business child. And think about if it's the only way to make a deal here, if it's the only way to go on, or do I have another option? And the first thing what you really need to do is zoom out and be not emotional. And this is the most critical thing, And I'm a really emotional guy to do it by myself. And I know what I say, Jorn, it's really, really, really difficult. And in this situation, it can help to have one, two, three hours of a professional coach, trainer, consultant in the negotiation area to ask him or her to help you to zoom out and don't be emotional.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:14:52]:
Ask the right right questions because the answer, I swear you, it's inside the most of the founders. But they need a sparring partner who helps them to go out of the, yeah, to zoom out and go out of the emotional area. And, to be honest, emotions are 99% of the reason why people, take hostages. Almost men's and almost because of emotional situations, they are not planned. So emotions is a basic for everyone to learn about your triggers, your emotions, and this is more than 50% of the of the, negotiation process. And then we take care of the other side of the triggers, emotionals, and how we can help them to say yes and you ask questions about ethics and, I call it white and dark sales psychology. All what I teach people, I show them, you can use in the good world and in the bad world. Yeah.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:16:09]:
It's like a knife. And with a knife, you can slice some apples or you can kill people. It's really simple. It's a knife. And negotiation and sales psychology skills are really sharp knife. And I make clear to my clients that I'm not going into negotiation or don't will support them if if they do bad things. Really simple.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:16:35]:
Mhmm. That that actually does make sense. Tell us about we're talking about motif compass, something like the motivational compass. How can founders or marketers use it to sell effectively without selling out?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:16:53]:
Yeah. I think we're right. Really simple. This is, neuroscience, model from Dirk Eilert. I don't know if you you ever heard the name. It's one of the leading, microexpressions experts in, Germany or in the the DACH region and the German speaking region in, Europe. And he and, a professor doctor was founding this, motif compass for another thing. So they asked themselves, okay.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:17:23]:
If people we coached and they have traumatized, they have blockers, how can we help them more effectively? And then they build up this motif compass. So it's like a disc it's extended disc motor, like red, blue, green, and yellow, where we say, okay, red is like people like Trump. What's in for me? I need power. I need fast cars. I need status, etcetera. Blue is like financial offices people. Yeah. Data and facts.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:17:59]:
Green people are like, kindergartner, like people who are working in a social, jobs. And, the yellow one, it's like chief entertainers. It's really simple what I say now, but at the end of day, it's like this. And all these people needs other pictures, other words. If I would like to sell something to mister Trump, I would only have him in my picture and say, you will be the number one. This product will help you to to be the number one of the number one. No one will comes after you. If I go with the blue one, I say or the green one, I will say, okay.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:18:38]:
I will save you to have issues in the future, and the community will support you also, with questions. Yeah. So it's really another thing how I tell the people about my product or in the negotiations. Yeah. So red and yellow is like, I would like to reach something at a target, and, green and blue, for example, they would like to saved. Yeah. They are not really happy when I say, hey. With this product, you can do more and more and more.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:19:13]:
They say, okay. I'm not really sure. But but then I tell them, hey. With this product, I can help you that you are doesn't got, bankrupt, that you don't lose your, your friends, lose your clients, whatever. They would like to be protected. Yeah. And red and blue, for example, they are target orientated. So they are not, I don't want to say they are not taking care about humans, but less humans, more objects.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:19:44]:
And yellow and green are more, influenced by by humans, not by objects. So the human is in the middle, point. Yeah? And this is what I tell them really quickly, and we can sharpen our messages with the motive compass. Yeah. And it's not really, really, really difficult. I had a client, c suite, and she told me, Matthias, I have a blue and a yellow one in the meeting. I said, yeah. Then we will do sentences where we combine this both.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:20:22]:
And we tried it, and she said, yeah. It works. And this was really nice to hear because it was for me also the first time that I do it for a client. And I was sweating a little bit, during the day. And at the evening, she called me told me I got more money and all the things what I want, so I would and a little bit more. All the conditions are accepted, and it worked.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:20:49]:
And before we go into short ad break, what are the three keywords that win most pitches, LinkedIn posts, or sales messages?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:21:00]:
Learn, work, and I forgot the third one. I I I I spoke about it today. Learn, work, and I forgot the third one.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:21:18]:
I make a suggestion. We'll be on a short ad break and when we'll come back, you remember. Okay. Hey, guys. Thanks for sticking around. I'm talking with Matthias Buhlmann about high stakes negotiation, how you can get the best out of it, and some frameworks. And he was, we were just talking about three killer words that were in most pitches. What was the last one you forgot? And please tell them all, all three.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:21:50]:
I forgot the word which I every time tell to my clients, don't use it. The rest is maybe a little bit not good, but this is a killer word, is helping. Helping, learning, and working. Because at the end of the day, helping, I was, doing a civil job with 80 years old people. For sure, they need help. But a c suite, the founder, he or she doesn't need help. He or she needs support. Yeah.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:22:20]:
Find other words. Learn. We are back in the school. Did you like the school, to be honest, at all? Yeah. Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. I was not really happy in my school time, and the rest is is is work. Yeah.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:22:38]:
At the end of the day, we think hard work, and we don't want to have hard work. We would like to have it easy and and quickly. Yeah. So there are our base needings also in sales psychology. What's in for me? Fast and, fast and easy solutions we would like to have. But today, to be honest, I had a discussion with, one guy, and he said, Matthias, I'm with you. But when I had learn, then I'm more happy to buy because when I buy, I buy really complex systems, and I'm really happy when they tell me you have to learn it before I can use it. So there is someone out there maybe who likes the word learn.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:23:23]:
And this is really important that you know anything and everything about your customer. Because in general, it's correct, but sometimes maybe it's the right word for your word for your for your target group.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:23:38]:
Mhmm. I was wondering. I was talking to a lot of people in past, and this is almost my seven hundredth interview in English. So I was I I was wondering before we get into real world applications, I heard from a lot of people sales work when you listen, when you're not aggressive, and when you build trust. Would you agree to these three pieces?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:24:02]:
Absolutely. Fully. Absolutely. It's a first step from the FBI negotiation concept also. Active listening for the Germans, not Zuhoren. So active listening. 80% is listening.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:24:18]:
Okay. Some real world applications where we can learn a little bit from stories from the startup lens. Can you share a moment where your psychological approach help close a tough deal or win over difficult client?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:24:35]:
Absolutely. I had a client. It was two years before, one and a half years before, something like this. I met him, three weeks, before. And he do something in the ecological area with the black fly, for feeding cows, etcetera. And he wasn't produced his first batch, but he was going to a large investor to Geilsenkirchen, Western Germany, Roport, and he said, Matthias, can we have a quick, quick counseling about this meeting? I said, yes. No worries. And then I was preparing myself because I found a lot of things in the Internet.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:25:17]:
And this guy was more, yeah, red orange guy, and I helped him, supported him with some sentences. We tested it. So I was the upcoming, investor playing a play a quick role play. And he called me back three hours later and said, Matthias, he knows that I didn't, produce the first batch, but he bought the first batch at all without seeing anything. And this makes me really proud. Yeah. Mhmm.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:25:57]:
I see. When we talk about real world examples, we also talk about your, Skaggle podcast and courses. We emphasize structure. Why is structure so essential for successful communications and scaling agile in enterprises?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:26:22]:
What I I had led yesterday a similar, you know, discussion and I told, my preside person, I said, hey. To be honest, the the the clients outside doesn't need to have a scaling agile training, whatever, is they need all the communication training. Because it exists often enough, or in general, we have five, five steps of recognition. So when I in in in level one, I didn't know anything about that I have an issue. In five, I only need a trigger to buy now. And when I see this, also with c suite and and big automotive companies also where I was, supporting c suite and also the level, below the c suite. I saw that there was three, five, six steps in front of information, and they communicated it. But they didn't take the people with them.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:27:33]:
And they didn't they was confused. They had no change management and said, hey. You need to start with zero. It's like you have small small babies, and they didn't know that they can run alone. So there are things that need your hand, but you need to start much more before with the communication. So first of all, please check in which status of this five, your your client or your opposite person is where you would like to talk to. Because at the end of the day, if you talk Chinese but there are Italians, Everyone would say, yeah, for so much years. It's really clear.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:28:15]:
But this is what happens every day also in the transformation business. On c suite level, on on apprenticeship level, on all levels, Please take care of the status of the of the of the opposite person because you doesn't value the other person. And if the other p person doesn't feel valued, you have a negotiation issue also. And we all negotiate every day. There are statistics out there out there. I have it from another, negotiation expert. He said, statistics says that we negotiate every week forty hours. So maybe it makes sense, Jorn, to have a communication slash negotiation training.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:29:06]:
And my negotiation trainings are often enough communication trainings also. And valuing the other person is a basic thing. If the other person doesn't feel valued, then you have a big issue. It has nothing to do with being smart, knowing the product, knowing the company, knowing the system, nothing to do with this. Take care of the other person. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:29:39]:
I see. Because because if you don't appreciate the other person, they'll never ever buy from you. Okay. You've also worked in large scale agile transformation, 600 plus teams. What 600 plus people in the team, what are the top two psychological blockers to agility that no one talks about?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:30:03]:
So I had a post guys interview. Similar about this topic. So first of there are three. So first of all, we are elements. We are not agile. We wait until some thumbs up some someone will tell us what we have to do. It's a little bit running gag, but often not enough, it is like this. So but the first thing is mostly we have no change management and the people doesn't know what happens now.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:30:29]:
So with agile transformation, we have new practices, new organizations, maybe new, responsibilities, and the people are not aware what happens now. They are scared of the future. It's a lot of uncertainty. So, therefore, we need to help them. Really, now we need to help them to understand why we do it, for what we do it, and how the way is anti the transformation ends. Yeah. Transformation is coming from, from, status a into status b. You know it.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:31:08]:
It's really it's really simple. It's like a system update, system upgrade. System a upgrade, system b. It's like with the it's the same like with the transformation. But now we talk about humans and we need to take them with us. Yeah, that's really important. And therefore, a lot of communication runs really not well. And the people are scared.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:31:33]:
And at the end of the day, when we are scared, Yuan, as humans, what are we doing? We go back into the system, into the behaviors which we now and which we are safe in. What means no transformation at all? Because we would like we we should have new practices, new responsibilities, etcetera. But if I'm scared, I go back into the rooms, into the systems, into the, habits which make me safe. This is one of the most thing. And, yeah, I was was publishing in, Springer Gabler also a book about it or a chapter in a in a book. And the second one is mostly for what are we doing this. Because, again, communication. The people are not aware of it for what is it good.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:32:31]:
So my last project was in the public services, and the people asked me from two teams, Matthias. We are not sure for what we are doing because it doesn't make sense for us. At the end of the day, for this both teams, they are right. But it was pressure from from top. Yeah. And the department did needs to do it, etcetera. And then they feel they they felt that they didn't know for what they're doing. So make clear for what you are doing first.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:33:06]:
Mhmm. Exactly. And when you talked about uncertainty, I do believe that's one of the big differences if you look for a corporate job or if you look for, unemployment because the people who are not looking for one of these careers, the ones who can embrace uncertainty, they are very likely to be freelancers or entrepreneurs. I was wondering for our audience, if they could go back in time, what was one thing you'd coach your past self before launching your first product team or podcast? I'm interested in what comments do we get. Let us look a little bit into the last piece, the future lens and founder advice. What role will psychology play in startup growth strategies post 2025, especially in an AI saturated noisy market?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:34:11]:
Which role within the, founders team.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:34:14]:
Yes. Especially especially about sales, about negotiations because you you could basically use AI for anything. What what what role will psychology play?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:34:27]:
It's, one of my my, favorite, things what I say, people buying from people. What means at the end of the day, the other person or the group of person needs to have the feeling that the word's coming from you. And for sure, I need k I for my LinkedIn post also. But at the end of the day, I my 60% of these, recommendations from KI, I will write new and the people see it. And now that it's so my tier source, you know, and the one of my mentors said, my tiers because I made a KI test before half an year. One month every day, two posts only with KI. And I and he came back to me and said, Matthias, I know you. And the Matthias source is missing.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:35:19]:
So the other persons will now when you do only playbooks, selling books, PowerPoints, only with k I, for sure, k I can help you. I use gamma.ai also for PowerPoints because I'm not a PowerPoint friend. And they give me a lot of good recommendations. But at the end of the day, I need to step in and do copywriting and change the picture. So what I don't want to see out there and maybe other people from the generations that are, different here. I don't want to see KI pictures. I really like it when they do a lot of nice, paintings with, and graphics of KI, but I don't use it because I don't buy when I see something like this.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:36:08]:
Oh, too bad. The cover graphic of this interview will be, with the assistance of AI. But we we we we we we we we did have something that came back to my mind because you said, people buy from people. I do have an increasing, increasing amount of people out there who think they generate, random people, random names, rand almost random URLs that had something that have something to do with AI and then get a lot of paying clients. And you write with those AI agents as much as to as many podcasts as possible. I even wrote an article about it because you just check the URL. There's nothing behind it. You you look up the person.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:36:58]:
They're not on the net. They are nowhere to be found in the people search engines in LinkedIn, Inxing, wherever, Facebook. So you instantly realize that is not a valid approach. You cannot simply spam me. The top URL will go in my spam folder, and I'll never look at it again. I get more than a hundred emails a day, and a lot of them are pictures. Do you think a lot of other people who are not as exposed to AI will have the same behavior in the future?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:37:33]:
I heard a lot of this this, tactics with agents, etcetera, and I'm really curious to hear about that it works. A lot of people tell you, for sure it works. Buy my product for €1,000?
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:37:48]:
Honestly, I can tell you there are a lot of usual suspects here where it doesn't work. For example, I had once the case where, they send out emails on a on a Saturday, on a Sunday, and the next day I came in. The exact same email, the exact same, headline of the email, two different people one minute apart, two different names one minute apart. And I was going, okay. We got two more candidates for spam. By now, I do have a bigger spam folder than a normal folder because there's a lot of people out there who who think they can get into top 20, tech podcasts with just spamming me. That doesn't work. But sorry.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:38:30]:
That But it doesn't look like phishing. Is there are people out there because it work with some people, so they do it. If people do it, if if we see it constantly, then in the world exist people who buy it. I don't know why I wouldn't buy it. I got a one time I got an AI call from an agent, and this was a really good call. I didn't, recognize it in the first three minutes that this was an AI agent from the, yeah, voice, from, how quick she was answering my questions and was reacting. And then there was some things where I felt, okay. That's I think that this is a k I agent.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:39:22]:
It was really funny to see, and I I know a lot of people who say we have, since a couple of years, AI agents, and it works. I doesn't see the numbers. But I think, support with KI AI in the future will be more. And for sure with KI and and I did my apprenticeship at DATIF, 1997. So there was a beginning of the public Internet, let's say, like this. And this is what KI is currently. It's like 1997. And I'm really sure that we see the next years a lot of things coming up.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:40:01]:
I'm really, really curious about, but at the end of the day, you need to know your target group and people buying from people. So what they do is, I have a lot of, impressions from my impression because the people would like to see if I'm a real person. And for sure, I used KI agents in the past for Instagram for finding new people and sending them automated, mails like. I know it's forbidden in Germany, but I tested it also. It wasn't successful. And I used a lot of templates for myself, which worked when I do it when when I really, look for the presence itself, and then I send the contact invitation. This works much more better than the automated thing. But I have people who brought me to this agent who said I made 30 k per month only with this agent.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:41:06]:
I cannot prove it, but I'm really, sure that we, get much more major agents, in the future and, selling over KI, will be more. But the, the texts and everything needs to fit to your target group. The can help you.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:41:34]:
I see. The thing is I I do believe I'm here, unfortunately, on the forefront of getting emailed and spammed, but I've now put out only my landline. And you know what my landline does? There is an AI agent answering. You just need to say two words and you get put through to my mobile phone, but actually all. All AI calling agents, all dumb calling machines have been failing. Otherwise, my phone wouldn't wouldn't stop anymore. So, sorry. We got completely sidetracked there.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:42:10]:
Sorry, guys.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:42:11]:
Then there are stupid pay eyes, I think. It's only automated shit.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:42:15]:
Yeah. What's one simple yet powerful technique startup founders can implement tomorrow to boast to boost sales or influence?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:42:29]:
Avoid the three magic words. Mhmm. Think about that people would like to have a quick and easy solution and they every time ask themselves what's in for me. And if you start with these two things, probably, yeah, with these two things, you will have more success, directly. Because I see a lot of LinkedIn posts, I'm helping people. I do this and this and no. Come to the point directly. Come to the point.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:43:00]:
What's in for me? Quickly.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:43:03]:
Yeah. I know. In Germany, you say.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:43:06]:
Yeah. To the point. Mhmm.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:43:08]:
Last but not least, what's the single biggest mistake you see founders make in their messaging and how can they fix it?
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:43:16]:
They are really so what I saw in the past was that mostly that they are really emotional. They love their babies, their products, their company, and this is how they sell it. If you are in person and the other person can feel the emotions and how you stand behind your product, it's really important. But within a direct message or an email, don't write sides of letters. Yeah. Don't do it. Yeah. Make it read
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:43:47]:
point.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:43:47]:
We have the primary, and I did my yesterday in your podcast, chapter was, published with exactly this topic. This is sort of thing what I recommend. Primary and secondary things, what describes your, your your products. The primary things are not paying on the, on this, on the first, first brain systems. The first you need to know we have two systems in our brain. The first is, really quick, and the second one is slow. So and when I go with the primary, so with the facts, data, facts, etcetera. That's really cool, but at the end of the day, I didn't recognize it in the in the first brain system, in the in the fast system.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:44:35]:
The secondary are more emotional. What is the end status when I what I can reach with your product? What is this for? Yeah. And this is really important. The second, a system needs the secondary items. Yeah. Really important. Not I can it's like your your, your podcast. I can say, okay.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:44:57]:
It's, biggest one, text number three, etcetera. I have a lot of facts. 700 interviews what you have, a lot of facts what I have about it. Okay? Does it catch me? I find it cool, but to listen it, I I don't know. But at the end of the day, when I say, hey. In my podcast, you get the best people out there who give you tips you never heard about in LinkedIn, etcetera, in forty five minutes. You had the biggest, biggest, founders with the, biggest fails and the most of the tips what I can give you. Oh, okay.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:45:35]:
This is what I would like to hear. I can do facts also about it, but facts tell, Stories sell. So learn storytelling also, please. It helps you.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:45:49]:
What we usually say our claim to fame is you've likely never heard of our guests, but you will in the future.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:45:54]:
Nice. Mhmm. That's nice. Yeah.
Jörn 'Joe' Menninger | Founder and Editor in Chief | Startuprad.io [00:45:58]:
Matthias, it was a pleasure talking to you. We will be back for our premium subscribers on YouTube and Substack, and we'll have a premium q and a session. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you.
Matthias Buhlmann | Trainer Sales Psychology | Interims Manager [00:46:10]:
Thank you very much, Johan. All the best out there.
Narrator Dorsey Jackson [00:46:17]:
That's all, folks. Find more news, streams, events, and interviews at www.startuprad.io. Remember, sharing is caring.
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