Mastering Startup Negotiation Tactics: Sales Psychology Meets FBI Playbooks

Pitch investors & close deals like an FBI pro — startup negotiation tactics that actually convert.

What Is This About?

Mastering startup negotiation tactics requires combining sales psychology with FBI-style playbooks. This episode applies proven negotiation frameworks — from active listening and tactical empathy to strategic mirroring — to the specific challenges founders face in deals, hiring, and fundraising.

Introduction

Negotiation is a skill that founders use every day — with investors, customers, partners, and employees — yet most never receive formal training. This comprehensive guide applies proven sales psychology principles to startup negotiation contexts, covering tactical frameworks for term sheet discussions, enterprise sales conversations, and partnership agreements that protect founder interests while closing deals.

Sales psychology applied to startup negotiation reveals that the most effective founders treat every business interaction as a structured negotiation rather than a transactional exchange. Key frameworks include anchoring theory for pricing discussions, loss aversion triggers in partnership negotiations, and reciprocity principles for investor relationship building. The guide covers tactical applications for term sheet negotiations, enterprise sales conversations, and strategic partnership agreements. Founders who apply these frameworks systematically report closing deals on 20-30% better terms.

What Is This About?

Mastering startup negotiation tactics requires combining sales psychology with FBI-style playbooks. This episode applies proven negotiation frameworks — from active listening and tactical empathy to strategic mirroring — to the specific challenges founders face in deals, hiring, and fundraising.

Pitch investors & close deals like an FBI pro — startup negotiation tactics that actually convert. Startuprad.io brings you independent coverage of the key developments shaping the startup and venture capital landscape across Germany, Austria, and Switzerland.

This founder interview is part of our ongoing coverage of Scaleup Founder Interviews from Germany, Austria, and Switzerland.

💼 Management Summary

In this high-impact blog post, we break down negotiation and sales psychology strategies for startup founders, based on our in-depth conversation with Matthias Bullmahn — an expert trained by both the FBI and Scotland Yard. Whether you’re pitching investors, closing enterprise deals, or leading agile transformation, this post offers practical frameworks, psychological tools, and communication tactics tailored for startup leaders. If you're serious about building trust, scaling ethically, and getting better results without manipulation — keep reading.

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🔍 What Are the Best Negotiation Tactics for Startup Founders?

Featured Snippet Answer (Optimized):Startup founders benefit most from ethical, psychology-based negotiation tactics like BATNA (Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement), motivational profiling, and active listening. These reduce emotional decision-making and increase deal success by aligning communication with investor or client psychology.

🎯 How Does Sales Psychology Influence Startup Success?

Sales psychology helps founders build trust, resonate emotionally, and craft compelling narratives. According to Matthias, avoiding the words “help,” “work,” and “learn” in pitches creates a stronger psychological appeal. Buyers want fast, simple wins — not complexity or hard effort.

Real-World Tip:

• Replace “help” with outcomes

• Use emotional triggers aligned with buyer type

• Practice active listening (not just hearing)

🧠 Learn more about ethical persuasion in our episode on Startup Ethics and Influence.

🧠 What Is BATNA and Why Is It Crucial in Founder Negotiations?

BATNA stands for “Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement.” For founders, it means knowing your walk-away point in investor talks or B2B deals. Lack of a BATNA leads to rushed decisions, high discounts, and bad contracts.

Real-World Tip:Before your next negotiation, write out your BATNA and SOPA (Strategic Options & Possible Alternatives). This reduces stress and boosts leverage.

📚 Recommended Reading: Harvard Negotiation Project

🧭 What Is the Motive Compass and How Can It Improve Startup Messaging?

Matthias introduces the Motive Compass, a neuroscience model classifying buyers as:

• Red: Status-driven (Think Trump, C-suite)

• Blue: Data-driven (Finance, engineers)

• Green: People-first (Social workers, HR)

• Yellow: Fun-driven (Creative, entertainers)

🟢🟠 Adapt your messaging accordingly:

• Red: “Be #1 with our solution.”

• Blue: “Secure performance with 99.9% uptime.”

• Green: “This platform supports your community.”

• Yellow: “Let’s have fun while growing.”

This model boosts engagement and conversion across emails, LinkedIn posts, and investor decks.

🤖 Can You Use AI in Sales and Still Be Authentic?

AI is a tool — not a crutch. Matthias warns against over-automation in sales outreach. Emotionless AI messages trigger distrust. Instead, use AI for ideas, outlines, and drafts — then rewrite with your own “voice.”

Pro Tip:Your audience can sense the “Matthias sauce” is missing when AI does all the talking. Personalization still closes the deal.

🔄 What’s the Role of Communication in Agile Transformation?

Scaling agile across startups or corporates fails when communication is neglected. Leaders must:

• Identify where stakeholders fall on the 5-stage change curve

• Address fear of uncertainty

• Provide a clear “why” for the transformation

Agile isn’t a buzzword — it’s a mindset shift, and psychology leads that change.

🧵 You Should Also Read

Explore related insights from Startuprad.io (coming soon):

• The Psychology of Sales: 3 Words That Kill Your Startup Pitch

• How Startup Founders Use Podcasts to Win Enterprise Deals

• Avoid These Top 5 Growth Marketing Mistakes in Germany

🔗 External References

• Harvard PON – Program on Negotiation

• Dirk Eilert – Motif Compass Model

• Website of Matthias

📣 Connect With Us

Relationship Map

• Jörn "Joe" Menninger → Host of → Startuprad.io

What is this article about: Mastering Startup Negotiation Tactics: Sales Psychology Meets FBI Playbooks?

Pitch investors & close deals like an FBI pro — startup negotiation tactics that actually convert.

What are the main takeaways from this discussion?

Mastering startup negotiation tactics requires combining sales psychology with FBI-style playbooks. This episode applies proven negotiation frameworks — from active listening and tactical empathy to strategic mirroring — to the specific challenges founders face in deals, hiring, and fundraising.

How does this topic connect to the broader startup ecosystem?

Negotiation is a skill that founders use every day — with investors, customers, partners, and employees — yet most never receive formal training. This comprehensive guide applies proven sales psychology principles to startup negotiation contexts, covering tactical frameworks for term sheet discussions, enterprise sales conversations, and partnership agreements that protect founder interests while closing deals.

About the Host

Joern "Joe" Menninger is the host of the Startuprad.io podcast and covers founders, investors, and policy developments across the DACH startup ecosystem. Through more than 1,300 interviews and nearly a decade of reporting, he documents the evolution of the European startup landscape. Follow Joern on LinkedIn.

Support Startuprad.io

Startuprad.io brings you expert-level negotiation and sales psychology insights tailored for startup founders. Our interviews feature the practitioners and coaches who help DACH founders close deals and raise capital. Subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube for weekly expert conversations.

Automated Transcript

Music:

Speaker1: Hello and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate.io, your gateway to the world of startups, tech and innovation across Germany, Switzerland and Austria with a global perspective. Today's guest brings a razor sharp mind, FBI level training and a whole lot of real world wisdom to the microphone. Matthias Buhlmann is one of Germany's leading voices in safe psychology, crisis negotiations and strategic communications for founders and executives. He has been trained by the former head of FBI hostage negotiation unit, holds a TÜV certification in Verkaufspsychologie, meaning sales psychology, and is a certified storytelling coach whose methods have helped startups, corporates, and solopreneurs alike turn cold leads into powerful connections without manipulation, hopefully. He's the creator of the podcast Psychologie, die verkauft und Skagel, so meaning psychology that sells. And what is Skagel?

Speaker0: Skagel is about scaling agile. So also I'm an interim manager and support large companies with agile digital transformation. And I was funding an own department within Accenture where I worked seven years, which combines large SAP programs and scaling agile.

Speaker1: Great. And in this podcast, you break down the science of influence and sales, leadership and large scale agile transformation, whether you're advising executive teams, preparing founders for high stakes investor talks or teaching emotional triggered strategies for Gen Z buyers. Matisse always leads with clarity, authenticity and results. Today, we'll uncover how founders can negotiate like pros, how messaging psychology can drive real growth, and what startups can learn from FBI playbooks, motivational hormone models, and Netflix-worthy storytelling frameworks. Matthias, welcome to the show and a real pleasure to have you here with us.

Speaker0: Jörn, thank you very much for inviting me. I'm really happy to be here and I can add one thing. I was also trained before three weeks by the ex-director of Crisis and Hostess Negotiation from Scotland Yard, from Nicky Perfect also.

Speaker1: That is a great name for a trainer, Nicky Perfect.

Speaker0: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker1: Amazing. I was wondering, let's open with a bold prediction. What bold prediction do you have for the future of communication, negotiation or sales psychology for 2030? you

Speaker0: It's the same like in the last 10, 15 years, 1 million years, people buying from people. And for sure, we can use K-I-A-I and so on. But at the end of the day, on the bottom line, it's about emotions. And it's about my own emotions to get them under control and also to trigger the positive emotions from the opposite at the end of the day.

Speaker1: I see. But I get the feeling you cannot sell necessarily with AI, but you can really work on the funnel that brings a potential lead to you.

Speaker0: Absolutely. You see that LinkedIn currently, a lot of KI stuff is out there, also commands from KI. And I see it that's a little bit heartless. And this is what I really see and feel then. and this person doesn't have so much success. For sure, I work also in the preparation and for my funnels also with KI. But at the end of the day, I look over it and I really do copywriting by myself at the end of the day also. Ideas I get from the KI sometimes because brain is empty. I'm a knowledge worker, you know. But at the end of the day, I have a hands-on mentality And at the end of the day, I will do things by my own.

Speaker1: Let's start at the beginning. What was the aha moment that led you to study FBI style negotiation and psychology for business?

Speaker0: My aha moment and greetings going out to my ex-boss Malte at Accenture. He told me, Matthias, what you do is good, but you can do it better because you are not trained in negotiation. It was in 2020, two, three months before we had the first lockdown in Germany with Corona. And I had a really good training, the first time that I had a negotiation training. And the outcome was, Matthias, you're one of the best guys we ever trained, but now you're much more better than before because you got a lot of practices and knowledge from experienced trainers. And after two years, I asked myself, okay, is this all with negotiation or can I do something else? And then I was informed myself about negotiation trainings. There's a lot of negotiations, negotiation trainings out there. And I found a really, really good trainer. And I had five or six classes with him.

Speaker0: He's since 25 years with the Harvard professors and do a lot of scientific things, which his training is based on. And on one day he said, Matthias, I have an offer for you. I get the ex-FBI chef boss from the negotiation unit, Gary Nusner. Are you willing to have a training with him? I directly say yes. And this was my way to the crazy thing that I had a training with the ex-FBI crisis negotiation unit boss, Gary Nusner. My aha moment was at Accenture, where I was doing a lot of sales, recruiting, and my boss see that there's much more in me, but I need to uncover it with the professional training.

Speaker1: Many people still associate selling with manipulation how do you define ethical sales psychology and why the founders need it more than ever

Speaker0: We see other people two times in our life so i was an ex-sales professional before 15 and 20 years before i study after my my apprenticeship in the early 2000s. And from the beginning, I saw a lot of salespeople who sell more than they can. At the end of the day, and I was in the software divisions selling software, I saw that a lot of IT technicans and developers need to do something what they cannot do because salespeople promised, declined, they can do it. And for me from the first day it was really clear i don't sell things which i cannot deliver, full stop and for sure i didn't do i didn't make all the deals what i can in the past but at the end of the day when i see the persons a second time. I can i can go out and get a drink with them so they are not angry to me and

Speaker0: i had it one time in my life, Joe, because I was a professional chief entertainer. And in this time at Fuerteventura, I met an old client for me. And he said, Matthias, it was the best sales that I ever had because you only promised what you can deliver. The people after you from your company promised me more but didn't deliver or are really late. And this is what I really appreciate. And at the end of the day, when I'm a founder, and I have a lot of contacts to founders in Zoling and also in Düsseldorf, where I support, and they're really loving their solutions. And they need to make more clear what the boundaries are. Don't promise what you can't deliver. At the end of the day, a lot of startups failed, and it's totally okay. A girlfriend of mine said, I found it 12 times. 11 times doesn't work.

Speaker0: And this is in Germany, we know, Almonds, it's not okay. But in the other world, it's okay if you fail and if you learn out of it. But don't promise what you can't deliver. Because at the end of the day, if you then be a new founder for another product and it's the same target group, maybe you come back to the old client and there doesn't will be a new client. So don't promise. And the ethical thing is a really big thing in the negotiation also. There are a lot of studies out of it. But at the end of the day, if you're a friendly person in sales or negotiation, be sure at the end of the day, the other person will be friendly also. Or if not, then the other person maybe is not the right target person for a product or for a company.

Speaker1: We're getting straight into the next question. By the way, most people won't see it, but I have seen that you have a cat in the background. What's the name of the anonymous guest?

Speaker0: This is Tia. She's now laying here. And the other one is easy. They're both British shorthairs. And the other one is a real big British shorthair cat. They're my ladies here. They're the most agile and most trade negotiation cats in the world. They don't want to do my job so that I can lay on a beach.

Speaker1: I see. We are already getting a little bit into the tactical deep dive frameworks and tools. And I was wondering, what do you think is the biggest misconception startup leaders have about negotiating, especially under pressure, like the BATNA framework for founders?

Speaker0: They often have no BATNA. So for the people outside, what is a BATNA? It's the best alternative to negotiated agreement. It's our best plan B. So for sure, we work here with a plan B. And if you don't have a plan B, so if you don't can make it in another way, then the only way to make sales, to make a deal, is now on this table. And this brings you sometimes not in the best situation. So you give up earlier, you give a lot of rebates, etc. So be sure that you have a best alternative to a negotiated agreement. So the question is, what can I do? when I go out of the table and have no result here. That's a question. And often enough, people think for sure we can negotiate. I was a negotiator in the school. I was doing the Abibal or some other things

Speaker0: that are organized for other pupils in my school. You call it negotiation. And I was five and a half years in a child and youth psychiatry as I was 11 until 16 years. and I was negotiating for my life a lot. But this has nothing to do with the same things what I did after a professional training. And this doesn't mean that you need to do six, seven trainings like me and FBI and Scotland Yard trainings. It's absolutely enough when you do two days of professional training, for example, Harvard Concept or with trainers who are really experienced and also have professional trainings, etc. Two days are enough. And there are two studies out there from 2010, which prove this also, that people who are trained two days with the Harvard negotiation concept, basic training, nothing special, that they are much more effective than people who are not trained.

Speaker0: It's really easy. It's not that difficult, to be honest. And it doesn't need to cost 10,000 euros. If you have a good trainer, you can make it with a group, two days, 5,000 to 10,000 people. If you have a big group of 10,000, 12 people, so per person around 1,000, 2,000 euros maximum.

Speaker1: And how can startup founders use the either VATNA or SOPA framework to improve their investor negotiations or enterprise deals?

Speaker0: So first of all, you need to zoom out and don't be emotional because it's your child at the end of the day. If you are a founder, then it's your child. And some people say, yeah, the first thing what I killed is my child, but not my human child. So my professional business child. And think about if it's the only way to make a deal here. Is this the only way to go on or do I have another option? And the first thing what you really need to do is zoom out and be not emotional. And this is the most critical thing. And I'm a really emotional guy to do it by myself. And now what I say, Jörn, it's really, really, really difficult. And in this situation, it can help to have one, two, three hours of a professional coach, trainer, consultant in the negotiation

Speaker0: area to ask him or her to help you to zoom out and don't be emotional. Ask the right questions. Because the answer, I swear you, it's inside the mouth of the founders. But they need a sparrings partner who helps them to zoom out and go out of the emotional area. And to be honest, emotions are 99% of the reasons why people take hostages. Almost men's and almost because of emotional situations, they are not planned. So emotions is a basic for everyone to learn about your triggers, your emotions. And this is more than 50% of the negotiation process. And then we take care of the other side, of the triggers, emotionals, and how we can help them to say yes. And you ask questions about ethics. And I call it white and dark sales psychology. or what I teach the people, I show them, you can use in the good world and in the bad world.

Speaker0: It's like a knife. And with a knife, you can slice some apples or you can kill people. It's really simple. It's a knife. And negotiation and psychology skills are a really sharp knife. And I make clear to my clients that I'm not going into negotiation or don't will support them as if they do bad things. Really simple.

Speaker1: That actually does make sense. Tell us about, we're talking about MotivCompass, something like the motivational compass. How can founders or marketers use it to sell effectively without selling out?

Speaker0: Yeah, thank you very much. Really simple. This is a neuroscience model from Dirk Eilert. I don't know if you ever heard the name. It's one of the leading micro-expressions experts in Germany or in the DACH region and the German-speaking region in Europe. And he and a professor, doctor, were founding this MotivCompass for another thing. So they ask themselves, okay, if people we coached and they have traumatized, they have blockers, how can we help them more effectively? And then they build up this motif compass. So it's like a disc. It's extended disc model, like red, blue, green, and yellow, where we say, okay, red is like people like Trump. What's in for me? I need power. I need fast cars. I need status, etc. Blue is like financial offices, people, data and facts. Green people are like kindergartner, like people who are working in the social jobs and the yellow one.

Speaker0: It's like chief entertainers. It's really simple what I say now, but at the end of the day, it's like this. And all these people need other pictures, other words. If I would like to sell something to Mr. Trump, I would only have him in my picture and say, you will be the number one. This product will help you to be the number one of the number one. No one will come after you. If I go with the blue one, I say, or the green one, I will say, okay, I will save you to have issues in the future and the community will support you also with questions. So it's really another thing how I tell the people about my product or in the negotiations. Yeah so red and yellow is like i would like to reach something at the target and green and blue for example they would like to saved yeah they are not really happy when

Speaker0: i say hey with this product you can do more more more they say okay i'm not really sure but when i tell them hey with this product i can help you that you are doesn't got bankrupt that you don't lose your. Friends, lose your clients, whatever. They would like to be protected. And red and blue, for example, they are target orientated. So they are not, I don't want to say they are not taking care about humans, but less humans, more objects and yellow and green are more influenced by humans, not by objects. So the human is in the middle point. Yeah. And this is what I tell them really quickly. And we can sharpen our messages with a Motive Compass. And it's not really, really, really difficult. I had a client, a C-suite, and she told me, Matthias, I have a blue and a yellow one in the meeting.

Speaker0: I said, yeah, then we will do sentences where we combine this both. And we tried it and she said yeah it works yeah and this was really nice to hear because it was for me also the first time that i do it for a client and i was sweating a little bit uh during the day and at the evening she called me told me i got more money and all the things what i want and a little bit more um all the conditions are accepted and it worked and.

Speaker1: Before we go into a short head break, what are the three killer words that read most pitches, LinkedIn posts, or sales messages?

Speaker0: Learn, work, and, I forgot the third one. I spoke about it today. Learn, work, and, I forgot the third one.

Speaker1: I make a suggestion we'll be on a short ad break and when we come back you'll remember okay Hey, guys, thanks for sticking around. I'm talking with Matthias Buhlmann about high stakes negotiation, how you can get the best out of it and some frameworks. And we were just talking about three killer words that were in most pitches. What was the last one you forgot? And please tell them all, all three.

Speaker0: I forgot the word which I every time tell to my clients. Don't use it. The rest is maybe a little bit not good, but this is a killer word, is helping. Helping, learning, and working. Because at the end of the day, helping, I was doing a civil job with 80-year-old people, for sure. They need help. But a C-suite, a founder, he or she doesn't need help. He or she needs support. Find other words. Learn. We are back in the school. Did you like the school, to be honest, Jörn, at all? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I was not really happy in my school time, and the rest is work. At the end of the day, we think hard work, and we don't want to have hard work. We would like to have it easy and quickly. So there are our base needings also in sales psychology. What's in for me?

Speaker0: Fast and easy solutions we would like to have. But today, to be honest, I had a discussion with one guy and he said, Matthias, I'm with you. But when I heard learn, then I'm more happy to buy because when I buy, I buy really complex systems. And I'm really happy when they tell me you have to learn it before you can use it. So there is someone out there, maybe, who likes the word learn. And this is really important that you know anything and everything about your customer. Because in general, it's correct, but sometimes... Maybe it's the right word for your target group.

Speaker1: I was wondering, I was talking to a lot of people in the past. This is almost my 700th interview in English. So I was wondering, before we get into real-world applications, I heard from a lot of people, sales work when you listen, when you're not aggressive, and when you build trust. Would you agree to these three pieces?

Speaker0: Absolutely, fully. Absolutely. It's a first step from the FBI negotiation concept also. Active listening for the Germans, hinhören, not zuhören. So active listening, 80% is listening.

Speaker1: Okay. Some real-world applications where you can learn a little bit from stories from the startup lens. Can you share a moment where your psychological approach helped close a tough deal or win over a difficult client?

Speaker0: Absolutely. I had a client. It was two years before, one and a half years before, something like this. I met him three weeks before. And he does something in the ecological area with the black fly for feeding cows, etc. And he wasn't produced his first batch, but he was going to a large investor to Gelsenkirchen, Western Germany, Ruhrpott, Ruhrgebiet. And he said, Matthias, can we have quick counseling about this meeting? I said, yes, no worries. And then I was preparing myself because I found a lot of things in the Internet. And this guy was more red, orange guy. And I helped him, supported him with some sentences. We tested it. So I was the upcoming investor playing a quick role play. And he called me back three hours later and said, Matthias, he now said I didn't produce the first batch, but he bought the first batch at all without seeing anything.

Speaker0: And this makes me really proud yeah.

Speaker1: I see um when we talked about real world examples we also talk about your uh scaggle podcasts and courses we emphasize structure why is structure so essential for successful communications and scaling agile in enterprises.

Speaker0: What I had yesterday, a similar discussion, and I told my upside person, I said, hey, to be honest, the clients out there doesn't need to have a scaling, agile training, whatever. They need all the communication training. Because it exists often enough, or in general, we have five steps of reclamation. So in level one, I didn't know anything about that I have an issue. In five, I only need a trigger to buy now. And when I see this, also with C-Suites and big automotive companies, also where I was supporting C-Suite and also the level below the C-Suite, I saw that there was three, five, six steps in front of information and they communicated. But they didn't take the people with them and they didn't, they was confused, they had no change management and said, hey, you need to start with zero. It's like you have small babies and they didn't know that they can run alone.

Speaker0: So they're things, they need your hand. But you need to start much more before with the communication. So first of all, please check in which status of this five. Your client or your opposite side person is where you would like to talk to, because at the end of the day if you talk Chinese but there are Italians everyone would say yeah for some materials it's really clear but this is what, happens every day also in the transformation business on C-suite level on apprenticeship, level on all levels please take care of the status of the opposite person because it doesn't value the other person. And if the other person doesn't feel valued, you have a negotiation issue also. And we all negotiate every day. There are statistics out there from another negotiation expert. He said, statistics say that we negotiate every week 40 hours. So maybe it makes sense, Jörn, to have a communication slash negotiation training.

Speaker0: And my negotiation trainings are often enough communication trainings also. And valuing the other person is a basic thing. If the other person doesn't feel valued... Then you have a big issue. It has nothing to do with being smart, knowing the product, knowing the company, knowing the system, nothing to do with this. Take care of the other person.

Speaker1: I see because if you don't appreciate the other person, they'll never, ever buy from you. You've also worked in large-scale agile transformations. 600-plus teams, 600-plus people in the team, what are the top two psychological blockers to agility that no one talks about?

Speaker0: I had a podcast interview similar about this topic. There are three. The first of all, we are elements. We are not agile. We wait until someone will tell us what we have to do. It's a little bit of a running gag, but often enough, it is like this. But the first thing is, mostly we have no change management and the people doesn't know what happens now. So with agile transformation, we have new practices, new organizations, maybe new responsibilities and the people are not aware what happens now. They are scared of the future. It's a lot of uncertainty. So, therefore, we need to help them. Really, now we need to help them to understand why we do it, for what we do it, and how the way is until the transformation ends. Transformation is coming from status A into status B. You know it. It's really simple. It's like a system update, system upgrade.

Speaker0: System A, upgrade, system B. It's the same like with the transformation. But now we talk about humans and we need to take them with us. That's really important. And therefore, a lot of communication runs really not well. And the people are scared. And at the end of the day, when we are scared. As humans, what are we doing? We go back into the system, into the behaviors, which we now and which we are safe in. What means no transformation at all? Because we should have new practices, new responsibilities, etc. But if I'm scared, I go back into the rooms, into the systems, into the habits, which make me safe. This is one of the most things. and he was publishing in Springer Gabler also a book about it or a chapter in a book and the second one is, mostly for what are we doing with this,

Speaker0: Because, again, communication, the people are not aware of it for what is it good. So my last project was in the public services, and the people asked me from two teams, Matthias, we are not sure for what we are doing. It doesn't make sense for us. At the end of the day, for these both teams, they are right. But it was pressure from top and the department needs to do it etc and then they felt, that they didn't know for what they're doing so make clear for what you are doing.

Speaker1: Exactly and when you talked about uncertainty I do believe that's one of the big differences if you look for a corporate job or if you look for an employment Because the people who are not looking for one of these careers, the ones who can embrace uncertainty, they are very likely to be freelancers or entrepreneurs. I was wondering for our audience, if they could go back in time, what was one thing you'd coach your past self before launching your first product team or podcast? I'm interested in what comments do we get um let us look a little bit into the last piece um the future lens and founder advice what role will psychology play in startup growth strategies post 2025 especially in an ai saturated noisy market

Speaker0: Which role within the founder's team?

Speaker1: Yes, especially about sales, about negotiations, because you could basically use AI for anything. What role will psychology play?

Speaker0: It's one of my favorite things, what I say, people, buying from people. What means at the end of the day the other person or the group of person needs to have the feeling that the word's coming from you, and for sure I need KI for my LinkedIn posts also but at the end of the day I 60% of these recommendations from KI I will write new and the people see it and now that it's the Matthias source, Andreas Wienheller one of my mentors said Matthias because I made a KI test before half a year. One month, every day, two posts only with KI. And he came back to me and said, Matthias, I know you. And the Matthias source is missing. So the other persons will know when you do only playbooks, selling books, PowerPoints, only with KI. For sure, KI can help you. I use Gamma.ai also for PowerPoints because I'm not a PowerPoint friend.

Speaker0: And they give me a lot of good recommendations. But at the end of the day, I need to step in and do copywriting and change the picture. So what I don't want to see out there…. Maybe other people from the Generation Z are different here. I don't want to see KI pictures. I really like it when they do a lot of nice paintings and graphics of KI, but I don't use it because I don't buy when I see something like this.

Speaker1: Oh, too bad. The cover graphic of this interview will be with the assistance of AI. But what you've been talking about, I did have something that came back to my mind because you said people buy from people. I do have an increasing, increasing amount of people out there who think they generate random people, random names, almost random URLs that have something to do with AI and then get a lot of paying clients. And you write with those AI agents to as many podcasts as possible. I even wrote an article about it because you just check the URL. There's nothing behind it. You look up the person. They're not on the net. They are nowhere to be found in the people search engines, in LinkedIn, Xing, wherever, Facebook. So you instantly realize that is not a valid approach. You cannot simply spam me. The top URL will go in my spam folder and I'll never

Speaker1: look at it again. I get more than a hundred emails a day and a lot of them are pitches. Do you think a lot of other people who are not as exposed to AI will have the same behavior in the future?

Speaker0: I heard a lot of this tactics with agents, etc. And I'm really curious to hear about that it works. A lot of people say, yeah, for sure it works. Buy my product for 1,000 euros.

Speaker1: Honestly, I can tell you there are a lot of usual suspects here where it doesn't work. For example, I had once the case where they sent out emails on a Saturday, on a Sunday, And the next day I came in, the exact same email, the exact same headline of the email, two different people, one minute apart, two different names, one minute apart. And I was going, okay, we got two more candidates for spam. By now, I do have a bigger spam folder than a normal folder because there's a lot of people out there who think they can get into top 20 tech podcasts with just spamming me. That doesn't work.

Speaker0: But it's like phishing. There are people out there because it works with some people, so they do it. If people do it, if we see it constantly, then in the world exist people who buy it. I don't know why I wouldn't buy it. One time I got an AI call from an agent, and this was a really good call. I didn't recognize it in the first three minutes that this was an AI agent from the voice, from how quick she was answering my questions and was reacting. And then there were some things where I felt, okay, I think this is a KI agent. It was really funny to see, and I know a lot of people who say we have since a couple of years AI agents and it works. I doesn't see the numbers. But I think support with KI, AI in the future will be more.

Speaker0: And for sure with KI. And I did my apprenticeship at Dativ in 1997. So there was a beginning of the public internet, let's say, like this. And this is what KI is currently. It's like 1997. And I'm really sure that we see in the next year a lot of things coming up. I'm really, really curious about, but at the end of the day, you need to know your target group and people buying from people. So what they do is I have a lot of impressions from my Impresso because people would like to see if I'm a real person. And for sure, I used KI agents in the past for Instagram, for finding new people and sending them automated mails like Kaltakwiese. I know it's forbidden in Germany, but I tested it also. It wasn't successful. And I used a lot of templates for myself, which worked when I do it, when I really look for the presence itself.

Speaker0: And then I send the contact invitation. This works much more better than the automated thing. But I have people who brought me to this agent who said, I made 30K per month only with this agent. I cannot prove it, but I'm really sure that we get much more major agents in the future and selling over KI will be more. But the texts and everything needs to fit to your target group. The Motif Compass can help you.

Speaker1: I see. The thing is, I do believe I'm here, unfortunately, on the forefront of getting emailed and spammed, but I've now put out only my landline and you know what my landline does? There is an AI agent answering. You just need to say two words and you get put through to my mobile phone. But actually, all, all AI calling agents, all dumb calling machines have been failing. Otherwise, my phone wouldn't stop anymore. So, sorry, we got completely sidetracked there. Sorry, guys.

Speaker0: Then there are stupid pay eyes, I think. It's only automated shit.

Speaker1: Yeah. What's one simple yet powerful technique startup founders can implement tomorrow to boost sales or influence?

Speaker0: Avoid the three magic words. Think about that people would like to have a quick and easy solution and they every time ask themselves, what's in for me? And if you start with these two things, probably, yeah, with these two things. You will have more success directly because I see a lot of LinkedIn posts. I'm helping people. I do this and this. And no, come to the point directly. Come to the point. What's in for me?

Speaker1: Yeah, I know. In Germany, you say put that by the fissure.

Speaker0: Get to the point.

Speaker1: Last but not least, what's the single biggest mistake you see founders make in their messaging and how can they fix it?

Speaker0: What I saw in the past was mostly that they are really emotional. They love their babies, their products, their company. And this is how they sell it. If you are in person and the other person can feel the emotions and how you stand behind your product, it's really important. But within a direct message or an email, don't write sides of letters. Don't do it. We have the primary and I did my – yesterday in your podcast chapter was published with exactly this topic. This is something what I recommend. Primary and secondary things, what describes your products. The primary things are not –. Paying on the first brain system. The first, you need to know, we have two systems in our brain. The first is really quick and the second one is slow. So, and when I go with the primary, so with the facts, data, facts, et cetera.

Speaker0: That's really cool. But at the end of the day, I didn't recognize it in the first brain system, in the fast system. The secondary are more emotional. What is the end status, what I can reach with your product? What is this for? And this is really important. The second, a system needs the secondary items. Really important. It's like your podcast. I can say, okay, it's the biggest one, text number three, et cetera. I have a lot of facts, 700 interviews, what you have, a lot of facts what i have about it okay does it catch me i find it cool but to listen it i don't know but at the end of the day when i say hey in my podcast you get the best people out there who give you tips you never heard about in linkedin etc in 45 minutes you had the biggest uh biggest founders

Speaker0: with the biggest fails and the most of the tips what I can give you. Okay, this is what I would like to hear. I can do facts also about it. But facts tell. Stories sell. So learn storytelling also, please. It helps you.

Speaker1: We usually say our claim to fame is you've likely never heard of our guests, but you will in the future.

Speaker0: Nice. That's nice, yeah.

Speaker1: Matthias, it was a pleasure talking to you. We will be back for our premium subscribers on YouTube and Substack and we'll have a premium Q&A session. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you.

Speaker0: Thank you very much, Johan. All the best out there.