The Interview

In this interview, we introduce our listeners to John (who will also conduct interviews in Arabic for Startupradio). Please give him a warm welcome!

John and Joe together interview our guest Luka from Penta, located in Berlin. It wants to be the digital bank interface for German and French Small and Medium Enterprises (SME). Right now they don’t have a banking license. 

The Founder

In the first interview of two interviews, Luka tells us also about his previous ventures. Together with him, we take a trip through his life. He tells us how he sold shoes on the streets of New York and about studying in Paris. We learn how he ended up in Berlin and how he approached the idea of Penta. Finally, we talk of course about Penta, who is in the current batch of Startupbootcamp Fintech (London). (Disclaimer, Joern is a regular mentor at the SBC Fintech pitch day in Frankfurt)

In the interview, Luka also talks about mondo in the UK and N26 in Berlin and his article of things he did wrong, which you can find here

Part Two

In the second part of the interview, we talk with Luka about raising venture capital and his experiences in Europe and the US doing so: 

Forbes 30 under 30

Update March 2020: The founder team of Penta was included in Forbes 30 under 30 2020 in Finance (Europe):


© – All right reserved


00:07 Host: Hey, everybody, and welcome to a new episode of Your podcast show with startup news and interviews from Germany.

00:16 Joe: Welcome everybody. This is another episode of Your news and interviews from a startup country, Germany. Today, I do have two people with me, speaking literally. There’s one person with me in my room here, in my small study, crammed together. And, we’re doing together for the first time. Don’t worry about it if you hear any noise or something. We’re not beating each other. It’s just it’s very cramped here. And also, we, of course, do have a guest. Luka, do you just want to introduce yourself briefly?

00:45 Luka: How are you guys? Thanks for inviting me. My name is Luka and I am a founder of Penta, which is a bank for SMEs.

00:53: Joe: Great. And then, I do have here with me in this small space, I do have John. John, you want to tell the listeners something about you?

01:02 John: Hi, I’m Joe’s best friend, in a way, that’s why he brought me here. No, just kidding. I’m really interested in the startup radio and I’m trying to join these guys. So, I’m trying to get the experience and like see how it’s going on here and then we can kick it off from here.

01:18 Joe: That means, John is the newest addition to our startup radio team. And the big advantage of him, he’s also speaking French and he’s also a native speaker of Arabic. That means we’re going to have in the future, hopefully, some podcast in Arabic. So, if you are out there you speak Arabic and you want to do startup interview in some relation with Germany just reach out to us.

That was so far enough advertising. Luka, you ended up in startup space. Can you tell us how this came about? I mean, it’s a typical question because you don’t go to school and say, ‘oh, I want to be an entrepreneur. I want to set up a bank’ you go to school and say, ‘oh, I want to be a locomotive driver. I want to be an astronaut, or I want to be whatever but no entrepreneurship. How did this happen to you?

02:09 Luka: So, I started my first kind of business when I was thirteen, fourteen with a friend of mine. I grew up in New York where we were selling sneakers. They were expensive Nike and Jordan sneakers that we sold for five, six hundred dollars on the streets. And from there I’ve always had an entrepreneurial drive especially growing up New York. I moved to Paris for university where we were playing with some ideas and ultimately, at nineteen, we set off and we traveled for a few weeks looking for investment for this crazy idea. It was a machine learning application. And, we ended up raising five hundred thousand through an institutional investor, actually. And, for a few years we were working on that. So, it’s just been a ride of different startups. Even after that, I’ve been involved in several others and then ultimately came to Penta because I realized how big of a need it was. But we’ll get into that in a bit

03:06 John:  Just one question. I know that you studied in an American university in Paris. And interestingly enough, I did like a semester abroad there. So, the world is really small.

03:15 Luka: Ok

03:16 John: Can you tell us a bit about the experience that you got from this system of education? Like the education system and the liberal hours, does it really affect the people in their decision making and how aboard they are in taking risks and becoming entrepreneurs and doing startups?

03:33 Luka: I think that was one of the biggest advantages. I started off studying, more or less, philosophy. And I realized two years into it, I actually hated anything to do it economics, politics, philosophy. So then, I started learning computer science on my own as well as taking other courses. Which luckily, the American University of Paris allowed me to do. So, I was allowed to take these courses. And I had a lot of time on my own and with mingling with hundreds of other students from the different classes, I was able to learn a lot. And so, one thing came to the next where I ultimately started that first startup in school. So, it was a complete trip from academia, essentially, to being an entrepreneur.  But, I definitely would say that studying in a liberal arts school definitely helped me. I mean I really don’t know. It’s really about the choices I made. I just wanted to do something fun. I felt school is a bit boring and I need something more exciting.

04:26 Joe: Talking about fun, my listeners already know that you have a strange sense of humor. But just one to make it clear. When you were selling sneakers on the streets of New York that was completely legal, right?

04:36 Luka: Yeah, I was paying taxes, actually.

04:40 Joe: Ok. And then, the other question is, we’ve been talking about traveling and trying to discover new ideas. John and I are consultants, so we’re taught to use tools. And I do get the feeling, entrepreneurs do it more with the experience, with the feeling, with an additional sense. How did you approach it and what are your recommendations for other entrepreneurs?

05:06 Luka: So ultimately, since I was a kid actually, I’ve been reading a lot. And, especially I came to university, I started reading a book or two a week. And, I remember reading this one quote from Warren Buffett where he said, ‘when I started off, I was reading eight to nine hundred to a thousand pages per day’. And I said, If I want to do anything serious with my life, I have to read a lot, especially to make up for my age. But of course, practice is nothing without actually doing it. So then, I set off and say, ‘hey, I’m going to try this out from the things I’ve learned’. So, it’s a mix with a lot of books. Like I said, I’ve always loved academia in that sense, but you have to apply it. I’ve been just trying to apply what I’m learning constantly. So, it is a mix of tools, but it’s also a mix of actually experiencing it. Because social theory and practice are the same in theory but not in practice.

05:56 Joe: And, can you take us through to journey how you, of course, you’re American, but nonetheless how you came from Paris back to the States and did your first startup. And, you’ve also shared with us in our article, everything you did wrong in startups that you published. And we are going to put it on the show notes of course. Can you tell us, and our listeners, like a little teaser, like little at appetizer, what is in there? In this article for them. And, in your own words, kind of your experience, everything, lessons learned, stuff like that.

06:33 Luka: Absolutely. So, I think I’ve made every single mistake possible in just running a company. I was a chief executive of that startup. And, we were spending fifteen thousand on flights and we were making the worst decisions. I mean, it was just awful team, it was just awful chemistry. But this was completely my fault because I was just running the whole show. So, I was the biggest deceiver of it all and I was just trying to put people to the side, I was trying to do this. I mean, I would say I was a terrible person, destroying that company. And definitely, I see the main reason it went to hell. But, it’s about everything. It’s about how you choose your partners. I mean, in that startup, I realized you have to choose your partners the way you would choose your spouse. You’re going to be with these people for the next seven to ten years. You’re going to marry them. And so, it’s not…

07:21 Joe: That doesn’t necessarily mean you just take the sexiest person you can get as a partner to set up a venture?

07:26 Luka: Oh, not at all. It’s a lot of merit of course, but it’s a lot about what this person is going to bring to the table. So, it’s not just about the sexiest person in the room. It’s also the smartest person and most important, the person who can accelerate the fastest. So, it’s also based on potentials. And, I look at myself and think I’m nowhere near perfect. But, if you’re like my team right now, we’re smart and we have a lot of potential to excel.

07:51 John: Just coming back to one of your statement. You know I like that. For fifteen thousand dollars, you can do quite a lot. Where did you travel, Antarctica and back?

08:04 Luka: No. We were just making a lot of flights because the startup was based out of L.A. So, we were traveling constantly to L.A. And, we were going to meetings. So, one of the subjects I wrote in the article was actually meetings are a complete waste of time and I still get still believe that today. So, a lot of that money was spent on meetings and you go to these meetings and you realize that, I would say, a hundred and ten percent of what was said at that meeting, could’ve been done on Skype. So, a lot of things we found out in person, we realize we don’t want to work with this person. But instead, we spent, I don’t know what it was, about fifteen hundred per flight just to get to one place to the next. And, that was absolutely a waste of time. Then also, there’s, for example, lawyers which I can get into as well. But, I think lawyers, for a startup, are a complete waste. I mean, in the beginning you need to validate your hypothesis. The last thing you need to do is copyright and file a patent. I mean, it’s just not worth it. It’s not where your concentration should lie. But in the beginning, that’s where our concentration lied. The things we executed the best on, were things that we didn’t have to do at all. And essentially, we didn’t prove our market fit. We didn’t even prove that there was a need for the product. Instead, we concentrated on or we got distracted with other things.

09:13 John: To me, it sounds like pretty much, you went from a mindset of a big corporation, doing a lot of meetings, doing a lot of legal stuff, into the startup world and just didn’t waste you point a view accordingly. Would you say that’s true?

09:28 Luka: Absolutely, that’s right on point.

09:33 John: Before we proceed, you lived in New York, you lived in Paris. What would the best and the worst parts of it? This claim, ‘oh we also have someone who’s working for us in New York’ Christian, mental high five to New York City. And what we experience, for example, our listeners can tell is when there’s rain or there’s snow there. The internet quality goes down dramatically because they’re getting water into the cables. And therefore, the quality goes down dramatically. So, there are some downsides to living in New York but what have been your upsides and what did you also like about Paris and what do you like, right now, living in Berlin? That would be interesting for me from an international perspective.

10:14 Luka: I think New York is a great place. Without New York, I wouldn’t be where I am today. I mean, there is this quote, you can leave New York but New York will never leave you. And, I think it took a lot of that from me. So, it’s very much this hustling mentality, where everybody is trying to make money. Everybody is trying to do something new, trying to do something different. Nobody really wants to be a copycat. But I think that’s cool. I like the mentality. I haven’t been back to New York in about three years. I have a lot of friends there, but I think New York’s an absolutely great place. But I do like Europe. I feel that America is very innovative. And I think in America, great things are happening. But, I feel that Europe is, not necessarily lacking, but there’s so much potential in Europe. And it’s ultimately coming to Paris, I think the ambience in Paris is absolutely amazing. It’s this whole creative vibe to Paris that I found beautiful and that’s where the whole thinking started. And I realized a little existential part of it, but I realized that there are certain things I want to do in life and certain things I don’t, and I wasn’t going to let anything stop me from doing the things I wanted to. And I think, if I didn’t have Paris, I wouldn’t have realized that. Because New York, I think everybody can agree with this, especially your friend in New York, your partner, it’s a very conformist people. You finish high school, to go to college, get internship, get a nine to five job. They do this and get a mortgage. I mean, it’s just very typical. And I knew I wanted something different. So, that’s why I moved to Paris. I was lucky enough to be able to move to Paris. And so, I’m always looking for new things and always looking for new challenges which brought me to Berlin. And I think Berlin is such an innovative place and people are really fighting for it. But I remember, actually, one friend came from New York to Paris and he said this is the most beautiful city I’ve seen, but there’s no innovation, it’s dead, nothing’s moving. And it took me a while to realize that, essentially, until I moved to Berlin where things are really moving things are really innovating.

12:09 John: I can relate a lot to Berlin because I’ve lived three years in Berlin. I did my masters in Berlin and it is the place to be if you want to have a startup. It is the hub for startups right now, I would say.

12:19 Luka: Yeah, and the city is even growing too.

12:22 Joe: I would like to disagree. Frankfurt rocks.

12:24 John: Yes, we are in Frankfurt and I work in Frankfurt, but my heart is in Berlin still. I want you to tell us a little bit about the ahoy Berlin. The working space and the idea of, this alternative working space and how you want to attract more people to work on your team. So, just tell us about it and why it’s different and why did you choose it?

12:46 Joe: I would also like to know, since Frankfurt is usually associated with Fin Tech? And, there’s a lot of talk about startups leaving London for either Berlin or Frankfurt. Well, I do have to admit, in the newspapers, it looks like more Berlin to be more active in the marketing there. Why did you not decide on Frankfurt?

13:10 Luka: First to answer that question. I first came to Berlin, I was working in another startup where I was more or less a technical aid. And we started working in a co-working space called mind space. And I thought it was pretty cool. And we started going around the business model. I’m not going to get too much into that business, but the business model was to partner with a lot of co-working spaces. So, I met a lot of co-working spaces in Berlin like Beta House as well as Ahoy Berlin. I thought Ahoy was really cool, but the funny thing is the press has written that we were at Ahoy and we actually were going to go to Ahoy, but a lot of things changed in the meantime including getting accepted to Startup Bootcamp. So, in the meantime, a lot of things changed but with Ahoy Berlin, we’re not there. But I have been to Ahoy, I know the people who are running Ahoy Berlin. And I think, it’s an absolutely fantastic place, if you’re a startup and if you want to meet people around you.

Getting to the point with Berlin and Frankfurt, it was really chance. I’ve been to Frankfurt a few times as well, but it was really chance that I found an attractive offer. So, I thought I’d come out there. I just think there’s more resources, there’s essentially, a stronger network. I have a lot of people there as well, so it’s also a personal decision more than just a marketer business decision. But I think it’s great, I mean, number twenty-six is up there. There’s a payment up called cookies which is out there. I know a bunch of fin techs who are out there, is just a name to it. But I think FinTech is booming. It really comes down to software. It’s not necessarily about fin tech and banking. A lot of these software, nobody’s really building, creating a new mortgage product. People are more building software to change the financial industry. So, it’s a bit of a different take to it all. But yeah, a lot of our partners, for example, some of our partners or actually all of them are in Berlin. We have spoken to others who are in Munich as well as Zurich and Frankfurt. So those are the big three, but other than that I think for us, at least for Fin Tech I think being in Berlin is a great place to be.

15:07 Joe: So, let me move to Penta a little bit now. If I have a startup now where I have a small-medium sized enterprise, why would I use Penta? Why wouldn’t I go to a traditional bank or like a competitor of Penta. Sorry, we talked up front and we’ve read a lot of information you provided us. At first, we just have to tell you were one of the founders of Penta bank and can you tell us a little bit about what Penta is doing and then answer John’s question? Because we always have to take our listeners with us.

15:40 Luka: Sure absolutely. So, after my partners and I, we were building a lot of businesses. And we realized that, I remember, for the first, for example, I’ll get to the Europeans, but for the first startup, we were using Wells Fargo. And we had to go to the branch to send international payments. They didn’t have international payments online. Ironically, this is a couple years ago. But ironically, Wells Fargo just allowed that in the middle of July two thousand and sixteen. So, it’s pretty Stone Age, but going to the European ones, it took us four weeks to open up a bank account in Germany. And that’s the average I’ve heard. The online interface is absolutely terrible. The processor is slow. There’s no real time account balancing and we started speaking to a lot of people and we said how is your bank? What’s going on with your bank? What are you using? And they said my bank is expensive, the online interface is awful. And we realize, essentially, that a lot of people had the exact same problem. So, what we did is, we started doing some research into, how do you build a bank? That sounds absolutely nuts. So, we did some research into some. And some other banks, for example, at number twenty-six, Mondo in the U.K. But Mando is more recent. We said ‘hey, if you essentially, leveraged infrastructure from others. If you partner with the right people, you can build a bank.  I just want to make it clear. We’re not a bank, we’re not calling ourselves a bank because we don’t have a banking license. We are partnering with somebody that I’m not ready to disclose right now, as we haven’t finalized anything. But we are partnering with somebody like a white label bank, for example, Wildcard, Solaris bank, Feedoor, just to name a few, to be able to offer the banking service. I hope I answered the question but ultimately, we were facing this problem in a lot of our peers were as well.

17:21 Joe: Sorry to be a little bit mean here, but you say you offer a better banking services and what I do understand, you want to make it easier, you want to make it faster for your clients. For small and medium enterprises and I would say also for people, sub-contractors, freelancers, right?

17:43 Luka: Our initial target market, just for a sense of their purser and Beta, would-be high-tech companies three to thirty employees who make below one million revenue per year, that’s our target market. And you’re right, I actually didn’t answer the first question. So, the base processes are very slow. They’re awful. The sonic process is so terrible and they’re expensive. But, we don’t want to just concentrate on the core banking where we’re offering deposits and transactions. And basically, that’s it. That’s going to become commoditized in the next five years. Every single bank in the world, hopefully, is going to be offering those services online and they’re going to balance accounts in real time. So that’s not where we’re focusing. That’s definitely something that we first have to solve. Because if we don’t solve that, then we can’t do the other things. But some of things we’re doing is, we’re completely redefining the user interface and how a bank communicates with its customers. Particularly for us, we’re automizing the whole processes and we’re creating this, I don’t want to get into too much detail, but we’re creating this type of system where a user is able to directly see exactly what’s happening in their account and they’re able to automize everything around them. So, for example, scheduling invoices or scheduling payroll, as well as seeing accounting or automating accounting from the beginning, which goes to the different tools and fin tech services and apps that we want to integrate. So, it’s not just about payments and deposits. It’s also about the tools that businesses can use to essentially empower themselves. And this comes from, let’s say, cash flow management. If you understand how your business is doing from a liquidity standpoint, we see that you’re running low on cash flow. It’s a pay day. We can offer you a loan directly on our platform from a third party service that you’re able to take out within minutes or if you have excess capital we’ll introduce you to a different let’s say B. to B. lenders or investment products that can allow you to put your money in a safe place or essentially, a more rewarding place. So, it’s a matter of using different tools and wrapping that around with a great user experience and interface for businesses.

19;44 John: I do understand that. I also think it’s very useful, because everybody out there who ever run a business they know the first and most important thing is your liquidity. Everybody tells you it’s the team, but the team will soon be gone when you don’t get to pay them. So basically, always keep track on your liquidity and always do forecasts even though it’s only excel. Even though it’s only a simple excel sheet, it can help you out a lot. I was just wondering because, you’re going to redo the user experience? I found this very good because, there are some apps out there from banks who would highly profit from being reviewed by startup, let’s say that way. But in the end, you still need, on the other side, partners to work with. Maybe, a white label bank behind you that do have a banking license. And my question is here. How can you actually be different in the services you are offering here? Because there’re banks in the background. They have to follow the rules. They have to do this and that. How can you be faster and better than the banks? I do understand, the banks you named, you’re potentially working with, they’re better, and they’re faster. But they’re still bank. So, they have to adhere to all the other side, all the regulations, all of this stuff. They will also need all the legal papers that you have there. Maybe they are processing it faster but if you do have to wait two weeks for some papers to be issued, it will still take two weeks. How can you accelerate that here?

21:24 Luka: That’s a great question. Actually, nobody’s asked that before and it’s something that we were wondering the beginning. So, when you’re…

21:31 John: I’m sorry, I’m a consultant in this area. That’s why I’m curious.

21:36 Luka: So, when you’re starting off, and you’re speaking to these white label partners. You sit down at these workshops. And you outline the different functions that you want to create. So, if we go to KYC or know your customer it’s when you’re onboarding especially a customer to the bank.

21:51 Joe: For our listeners, this is basically when you are in Europe just have to show your passport and where it’s in America still sufficient if you do have a Social Security.

22:01 Luka: That’s right. And so, let’s say for example, retail. The moment you can do retail banking with independent or individual accounts, you can open up account in about eight minutes. For businesses, it’s much more difficult because you have to verify executives or other officers in the company as well as to see the companies registered. So, there’re some things that you have to do ahead of time that you have to sit down and agree with, with your white label partner.  How you’re going to do it and what you plan to do. At the moment, we’re sitting down with a couple of our potential partners to figure out what we’re going to do and how we’re going to do it. Based on their approval of whether we’re compliant with the German regulatory body or we have their green light to go ahead. So actually, a lot of it is preplanned. We can already foresee what problems we’ll have, what problems we won’t have. So, to come to the question of, will it take two weeks? It won’t be two weeks because we’ll know months in advance how long it’s going to take. So, it’s more about execution than it’s about essentially, the waiting time.

23:02 John: Now I understand. You basically give your potential clients a checklist and if they come in with or if they produce, maybe physically, maybe digital, with everything you need to have basically you’re good and you can open an account in let’s say ten minutes. But, if they don’t have it, it will still take time, right?

23:24 Luka: Yeah that’s right. So, we’re completely digital. You won’t be able to sign up through a branch or in person. But for example, we’ll have in the beginning if you’re a business and you’re signing up you need some documents from when you’re registered. You can upload that directly before you have a call with one or a customer service representative. We can probably finish the minutes online very quickly. I don’t want to promise any numbers, whether it’s minutes or hours, but we are aiming for it to be done within the same day.

23:51 Joe: For everybody who doesn’t know Germany, because we do have hotspots of people listening for example in India. Now, most of you out there in the U.S. and U.K., there’s a public register in Germany where companies like German version of Nail TT or PLC, have to be registered. And therefore, we’re just talking about, more or less, officials. No, we’re talking about only official printouts of this, like hundreds of this. So, it’s a trading register print out that you’re going to have to show that it’s validating this company is really not a hoax. This is registered with this court, because you have to do it in in the lower court in Germany and it’s registered with this number in this part here and there. And, you can always go there and read everything up from there and everything that it’s stated there also has, what you call in Germany, public faith. That means you can rely on everything that is written there.

24:53 Luka: That’s completely right. And, that’s exactly the issues we’re trying to solve so we can do it extremely quickly.

24:59 Joe: And now of course, you’re going to have a lot of people approaching you due to our interview. But how are you going to get clients and we just talked about some current account banking, and you going to have a third party for loan, a third party for investment products. What are you going to actually offer declined except from the payment services?

25:21 Luka: Do you mean us as a bank? Or us as a whole product offering?

25:24 Joe: Everything you have to offer.

25:26 Luka:  So, one of our creeds is that, if we can do something the best in industry we’re not going to do it. So. What we’re ultimately offering is what we’re best at. And, what we’re best at, is to essentially offer different products or services that make sense for businesses. So, different businesses have different needs, whether you’re one man show. Cab driver for example, or whether you’re a third person business or three-hundred-person business. It’s all completely different. Ultimately, we’re aiming to offer curated services and tools for specific types of businesses. Essentially, it’s our job to curate exactly what they need. And a lot of it is going to be coming from us. A lot of it, we will be offering ourselves, whether it’s loan products or different products like that, of course, but until we have a banking license, we can’t exactly do that on our own. But, it really depends on what we see that a business sees in how we see that we can personally innovate as a company.

26:22 John: I understand it is cool but, how would you reach those people? How would you get to your target market? And, how would you convince them? Like, I’m a cashless startup and I need deposits and I need loans, why would I get Penta bank and how would I get to know about Penta?

26:42 Luka: At the moment, we have a couple hundred businesses signed up. We started a full push on the P.R. and marketing side of it in June. And actually, in the last couple of weeks, we haven’t had a lot of time for marketing as we’re raising funds. And now, we’re going to different investor pitches. But, we’ve actually had a lot of success with onboarding the users. So, our mentality in our first startup which was first get the money then get the users. So, what we did is we went for the money and then we tried to get the users. That didn’t work so our mentality was different now. We said, let’s not spend a penny. Let’s on board a couple hundred users and see where that takes us and ultimately by doing that we were able to validate everything we’re doing, and we contacted, and we spoke with actually, we’re trying to contact everybody. And we spoke to most of the businesses that have signed up, which helped us understand their needs. So, from a product validation perspective, it’s crucial that sort of soothe us. A lot of them just run to market and think so everybody’s just going to come to start using it. So, at the moment, we have had a lot of success with that and we will continue to do that. One of the things that we’re innovating, which as well as changing communication between businesses and its bank as well as with other businesses, is a sense of we’re bringing this new type of confirmation tool. Where, when a payment is sent or when certain business is done between two businesses, from a Penta account, there’s a confirmation sent to the other business. Essentially, what it’s doing is helping spread the word that a bank that’s modern. And that creates value for both parties exists. So, it’s a lot of the word of mouth basis. It’s a lot of inherent marketing. We’re strong believers as a team, that every single product should be able to market itself. If the product doesn’t have that, then it’s essentially worthless. If you look at the examples like Facebook with the network effect. Facebook doesn’t work if there’s only one user, but it does work if there’s two. So, we’re essentially trying to create this type of network effect where it makes sense for other businesses to come on board, join, essentially open a Penta account. And at the moment, we’ve just purely through blogging and through P.R., we have been getting a lot of new leads and a lot of interesting contacts from investors and accelerators and cool guys like you. So, we’re going to continue that as well as concentrate on the virality within the product.

28:58 John: Cool. Let me shift to another question and play the role of the devil’s advocate in a way. Like, I really find it bold that you’re going into the banking industry at this point in time that this.  Especially in the German market. If you see the biggest two institutions like for example. Dortch bank and Comer’s bank. Those guys have lots of problems and they’re kind of like so many critics of the banking industry are saying that it’s going to be controlled by the European Central Bank for example, and the baffing Germany as a sub-example, like a lower local regulatory body. How do you see this as a challenge for you and how do you see this as an opportunity? The bigger banks are having problems. How can you fill in? And how can you actually survive? Some critics are saying that banking is actually dying now.

29:49 Luka: So, that’s a great point. The last, I may forget that. Please remind me but Dortch is having a lot of financial troubles on top of the regulatory perspective. Their stock has plummeted in the past couple of months. They’re not looking too good from a financial perspective. They’re leveraging themselves too much. Its typical banking interests. I wouldn’t say it’s same, obviously, but it’s quite somewhere. So, from that perspective, it’s mainly financial. We’re facing different problems. It’s not the same problems. It’s mainly oriented around essentially, onboarding customers. And essentially, offering the best services. So, the banks are creating this lock-in effect with their customers where they’re not allowed to, potential users, locked into the sort of products you’re offering, whether it’s a loan product or whether it’s a certain thing or product. We’re not doing that. We’re planning to offer just different services. Everybody as a whole.

30:44 Joe: That’s pretty interesting. I will be looking forward to your new bank and of course, we will be more than happy to have you back on a second episode to tell us a little bit more about it.

30:58 Luka: Sure. Absolutely.

31:00 Joe: Great. Thanks for this interview.

31:01 John: Thank you very much Luka.

31:03 Luka: Thanks a lot, guys

31:04 Joe: Yes, great. Thank you, great to have you here.